Oh, brother (I roll my eyes)

On 12 May 2004 17:27:06 GMT, Ignoramus20355
wrote:

In article .net,
Jonathan Ball wrote:
Ignoramus20355 wrote:

Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank too
much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because
you consume
way too many calories.


That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.

That question has been long answered:

lack of discipline
lack of self respect
immaturity

Have you not seen undisciplined, non self-respecting, immature slim
people? If what you mentioned was a real cause of obesity , such people
would not exist. But, I see loads of such people.


No, that's because Jonathan Ball is an idiot. I've seen tons of people
who aren't fat who have those three characteristics. Personally, I got
fat due to injury (shoulder and ankle) and by eating the same amount I did
when I was riding my bike. Then insulin resistance developed and carbs
caused me to become depressed, leading to a viscious cycle. I have
tremendous discipline, a tremendous amount of self respect and am very
mature.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Ignoramus20355 wrote:
In article .net, Jonathan Ball wrote:

Ignoramus20355 wrote:


Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank too much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because you consume
way too many calories.


That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.

That question has been long answered:

lack of discipline
lack of self respect
immaturity


Have you not seen undisciplined, non self-respecting, immature slim
people?

Of course.

If what you mentioned was a real cause of obesity, such people
would not exist. But, I see loads of such people.

Bad logic, pal; very much akin to the "all dogs are
poodles" variety. Lack of discipline, lack of self
respect and immaturity don't necessarily lead to
grotesque obesity, but examine a grotesquely obese
person and you will always find lack of discipline,
lack of self respect and immaturity in appreciable
concentration. The three emotional pathologies might
lead to lots of bad outcomes; grotesque obesity is just
one of the many.

You need to learn to distinguish between necessity and
sufficiency. Lack of discipline, lack of self respect
and immaturity are necessary for grotesque obesity, but
not sufficient, which means that if you observe the
obesity you'll always observe the emotional
pathologies, but if you observe the emotional
pathologies you won't necessarily observe the obseity.

If you have truly got a grip on the weight problem, I
imagine you have begun to acquire discipline and self
respect, which will propel you on the road to maturity.
I don't consider the emotional pathologies to be
permanent handicaps.



For example, I am a slim person at normal weight (I am saying so just
so that you would not dismiss what I say as self excuses of a fat
person). I used to be fat but lost weight by eating less and eating
better and exercising.

No great mystery to it, is there?


No great mystery, no.

What I would really like is, to remain slim and not be hungry
after I ate enough for the day. Just like the "naturally slim"
people.

I don't know how long you've had a grip on your weight,
but I would imagine that over time, you'll get there.


i


And yet, I am an overeater and have to apply a lot of efforts to not
overeat. I limit my portions, even though at each meal I would like to
eat more, I eat a lot of low calorie vegetables, keep down carbs, do
not eat sugar etc.

That's why I call myself a "naturally fat" person.

There is no particular emotional reason for my overeating, and I am
sure that I overeat becaus some metabolic function or another is not
working right in my body.

Whereas some people eat all they want, but fortunately they do not
want all that much.

So, saying that the only difference between fat people and slim people
is "gluttony"and immorality is stupid and inhelpful in really
understanding anything.

I do realize that you get off by thinking that you are upsetting fat
people, so the complexity of what I say may be lost on you, but
hopefully some other people can identify with what I am describing.

char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34); }";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."

Bob in CT wrote:

On 12 May 2004 17:27:06 GMT, Ignoramus20355
wrote:

In article .net,
Jonathan Ball wrote:

Ignoramus20355 wrote:

Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank
too much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because
you consume
way too many calories.



That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.


That question has been long answered:

lack of discipline
lack of self respect
immaturity


Have you not seen undisciplined, non self-respecting, immature slim
people? If what you mentioned was a real cause of obesity , such people
would not exist. But, I see loads of such people.


No, that's because Jonathan Ball is an idiot. I've seen tons of people
who aren't fat who have those three characteristics.

You make the same fundamental error of logic that
Ignoramus does. Call lack of discipline, lack of
self-respect and immaturity EP, for Emotional
Pathologies. Obesity is O.

Then EP is necessary, but not sufficient, for O. That
is, if you see O, you will see EP (necessity); but if
you see EP, you won't necessarily see O (sufficiency).

Personally, I got
fat due to injury (shoulder and ankle) and by eating the same amount I
did when I was riding my bike. Then insulin resistance developed

So you got REALLY fat.


and carbs caused me to become depressed, leading to a viscious cycle.

In other words, you consider yourself a victim of some
external "forces".

I have tremendous discipline, a tremendous amount of self respect and am
very mature.

Evidently not, or you would have caught it much
earlier, and you wouldn't now be blathering about a
"viscious [sic] cycle."

"Jonathan Ball" wrote in message
news
Bob in CT wrote:

On 12 May 2004 17:27:06 GMT, Ignoramus20355
wrote:

In article .net,
Jonathan Ball wrote:

Ignoramus20355 wrote:

Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank
too much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because
you consume
way too many calories.



That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is
obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.


That question has been long answered:

lack of discipline
lack of self respect
immaturity


Have you not seen undisciplined, non self-respecting, immature slim
people? If what you mentioned was a real cause of obesity , such people
would not exist. But, I see loads of such people.


No, that's because Jonathan Ball is an idiot. I've seen tons of people
who aren't fat who have those three characteristics.

You make the same fundamental error of logic that
Ignoramus does. Call lack of discipline, lack of
self-respect and immaturity EP, for Emotional
Pathologies. Obesity is O.

Then EP is necessary, but not sufficient, for O. That
is, if you see O, you will see EP (necessity); but if
you see EP, you won't necessarily see O (sufficiency).

Personally, I got
fat due to injury (shoulder and ankle) and by eating the same amount I
did when I was riding my bike. Then insulin resistance developed

So you got REALLY fat.


and carbs caused me to become depressed, leading to a viscious cycle.

In other words, you consider yourself a victim of some
external "forces".

I have tremendous discipline, a tremendous amount of self respect and am
very mature.

Evidently not, or you would have caught it much
earlier, and you wouldn't now be blathering about a
"viscious [sic] cycle."


Bob believes that there are evil external forces working against his
weightloss "efforts". He doesn't believe that eating less would work for
him. Don't try to use logic to reason with him as this has always failed in
the past.

Dreck the Fat **** wrote:
...

My only replacement is aniseed balls. I use them
as a substitute for the fags, but I must admit I do
eat more during mealtimes

That's because you lack discipline, fatso.

I've incredible discipline,

No, you've none.

and my smoking quit goes
some way in demonstrating that.

Some way? How many times have you tried before but failed because you lack
*discipline*?

I've also heard that smoking can help people to be
thin (maybe it just keeps the mouth busy)

I'm hoping the quit will make me more active

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! More active than what -- what
you were before you crippled yourself trying to lift engine blocks in front of
the lads?

Yes. I live in a wheelchair during the day.

*playing my violin for you*

and
feel inclined to burn it off rather than diet. I've never
really tried a *meaningful* or determined diet before.

No kidding, slacker. Your existence is meaningless.

...

My mum's a pink puffer :-(

You're a blue-foot and a blue bloater.

You should 've paid more attention to Pearl's message

Nobody with a sound mind should heed that loony crank's message about anything.

to you this afternoon before making a fool of yourself
here. Why do attack disabled people like myself?

I've never attacked your self-inflicted disabilities, just how you got them.

...

Ignoramus20355 wrote:

In article k.net, Jonathan Ball wrote:

Bob in CT wrote:


On 12 May 2004 17:27:06 GMT, Ignoramus20355
wrote:


In article .net,
Jonathan Ball wrote:


Ignoramus20355 wrote:


Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank
too much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because
you consume
way too many calories.



That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.


That question has been long answered:

lack of discipline
lack of self respect
immaturity


Have you not seen undisciplined, non self-respecting, immature slim
people? If what you mentioned was a real cause of obesity , such people
would not exist. But, I see loads of such people.


No, that's because Jonathan Ball is an idiot. I've seen tons of people
who aren't fat who have those three characteristics.

You make the same fundamental error of logic that
Ignoramus does. Call lack of discipline, lack of
self-respect and immaturity EP, for Emotional
Pathologies. Obesity is O.

Then EP is necessary, but not sufficient, for O. That
is, if you see O, you will see EP (necessity); but if
you see EP, you won't necessarily see O (sufficiency).


Okay, consider me then. I was fat. According to you, it means that I
was immature, lacked self respect and self discipline.

But then I lost weight! I assue you that I did not become more mature,
self disciplined and I always had a lot of self respect.

If you lost the weight and kept it off through your own
change of habits, rather than through surgery or some
other externally-imposed method, then you undoubtedly
DID gain self discipline, self respect and emotional
maturity.


That's a contradiction to your explanation of EP as a cause for O.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}"; main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."

Thank you, Deb. I was going to ask if the world's problems have been solved
yet, and then go back to sleep.

Ignoramus20355 wrote:

In article . net, Jonathan Ball wrote:

Ignoramus20355 wrote:

In article .net, Jonathan Ball wrote:


Ignoramus20355 wrote:



Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank too much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because you consume
way too many calories.


That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.

That question has been long answered:

lack of discipline
lack of self respect
immaturity


Have you not seen undisciplined, non self-respecting, immature slim
people?

Of course.


If what you mentioned was a real cause of obesity, such people
would not exist. But, I see loads of such people.

Bad logic, pal; very much akin to the "all dogs are
poodles" variety. Lack of discipline, lack of self
respect and immaturity don't necessarily lead to
grotesque obesity, but examine a grotesquely obese
person and you will always find lack of discipline,
lack of self respect and immaturity in appreciable
concentration. The three emotional pathologies might
lead to lots of bad outcomes; grotesque obesity is just
one of the many.


Then how come those obese people sometimes lose weight.

If they lose it by a change in "lifestyle" and keep it
off, it's because they acquired the necessary self
discipline, self respect and emotional maturity.


I was not "grotesquely obese", but I was obese, and then I lost
weight, and I assure you that no changes in my self respect or my self
discipline level occurred.

I bet there *were* such changes, if you lost the weight
and have kept it off.


http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/

What did change is that I decided that it was irrational to be fat and
unhealthy.

In other words, you began taking responsibility for
yourself, rather than seeing yourself as some kind of
"victim". That IS a change in self respect and a
result of growing into an emotionally more mature
person. How can you fail to see this?

So I made some changes. I have not eaten a single piece of
junk food or candy in almost a year, for example. Why?Because I
_lack_self discipline.

No, you *gained* the self discipline to enable you to
refrain from the stuff.

I know that eating "a little bit of candy"
would set _me_ on a slippery slope.

And yet, even though I lost weight, I still remain an overeater who has to
struggle to not overeat and to not get too many calories.

But due to having acquired some self discipline, you
manage to resist.


Why? Because something is screwed up in me in a way that is not screwed
up in "naturally slim" people. I already eat "clean" and "healthy".

That is the real cause of my obesity, not some emotional bull****. I
am a very unemotional person who tried to rationally assess every
situation.


You need to learn to distinguish between necessity and
sufficiency. Lack of discipline, lack of self respect
and immaturity are necessary for grotesque obesity, but
not sufficient, which means that if you observe the
obesity you'll always observe the emotional
pathologies, but if you observe the emotional
pathologies you won't necessarily observe the obseity.

If you have truly got a grip on the weight problem, I
imagine you have begun to acquire discipline and self
respect, which will propel you on the road to maturity.


bull****, I have no more discipline than before, and no more self
respect.

You're wrong. This goes to show that you still have a
considerable distance to travel on the road to
emotional maturity, but you're on your way; don't look
back.

I just changed the way I eat. I had enough discipline to get
good grades in college, finish my MBA degree at a prestigious
university etc, and yet I was fat.

There's self discipline, and then there's TOTAL self
discipline. Few if any people are so totally self
disciplined that they never make any mistakes.



I don't consider the emotional pathologies to be
permanent handicaps.


I think that your theory is not based on quantifiable evidence.

Very little of psycho-social observation is. That
doesn't make it wrong.



For example, I am a slim person at normal weight (I am saying so just
so that you would not dismiss what I say as self excuses of a fat
person). I used to be fat but lost weight by eating less and eating
better and exercising.

No great mystery to it, is there?


No great mystery, no.

What I would really like is, to remain slim and not be hungry
after I ate enough for the day. Just like the "naturally slim"
people.

I don't know how long you've had a grip on your weight,
but I would imagine that over time, you'll get there.


Is there some evidence for that? I would really like to know if I would
ever have normal appetite.

I have been maintaining my weight with great success for 8 months,
meaning that it was relativey stable. (with a slight downward trend
this year as I am working on losing 10 more pounds in 2004). I have my
complete weight history on my weight loss page.

And yet, as I said, not overeating is always a struggle. Almost every
day I want to overeat. Not by much, I am sure that I would be
satisfied if I ate 20% more food. But, 20% more food would cause me to
gain almost a pound per week.

I lost 50 lbs, from 223 to 173.

If somehow, you know from somewhere that people's appetites notmalize
after a few years in maintenance, I would like you to post your
sources.

I don't know it. It's a hunch.

Bob in CT wrote:
...

I love it when people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking
about


I do know what I'm talking about. There is no great mystery to
weight loss. A cheeseburger of a given size provides the same
number of calories to me as it does to you; moving your 120kg
laterally for 4 miles on foot - that's called "walking", fatso -
burns even *more* calories for you than it does for me (68kg).

Well, considering that you apparently have no understanding of the
Glycemic Index

Apparently, neither do you -- at least its complete insignificance in
choosing healthy foods. Why don't you eat carrots or drink orange
juice? "Oh, because they cause an insulin spike." Well so does your
cottage cheese, chubby. So does that butter-fried steak with melted
cheese. So do your fried pork skins.

Actually, butter-fried steak with melted cheese would not cause much of
an insulin increase,

Ipse dixit. Any dietary intake (other than water) in a normal person will result
in serum glucose increase followed by a rise in insulin. That's nature. Too bad
Dr Atkins never really grasped it.

as insulin is primarily caused by carbs.

Ipse dixit and an overly-simplistic explanation. First, you should distinguish
between simple and complex carbohydrates. Second, you need to note that each of
those causes a different surge in serum glucose levels and hence a different
reaction in insulin response. Third, you're ignoring the fact that the body
evolved to secrete insulin in response to food -- period. Etc.

I don't
eat carrots because they make my stomach upset and juices are the spawn
of Satan -- there is nothing whatsoever good about juices.

Juices usually contain vitamins and minerals (apple juice excluded). They can be
part of a healthy diet in moderation.

Eat fruit.

One should eat fruit. It's high in fiber and contains (egads!) carbs which help
the body function properly.

Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank too
much orange juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise
and because you consume way too many calories.

or the difference in how insulin resistant/diabetic
people metabolize carbohydrates,

Most people who use GI to determine what they can or cannot eat are
not diabetic or anywhere near being insulin resistant. GI is one of
the least scientific "tools" developed. Which baseline or list are you
using anyway?

What does GI have to do with insulin resistance?

Ask Dawn. I disabused her of the error she made.

One becomes insulin
resistant for a variety of reasons, including the low fat, high carb
diet I was on for many years. According to GI, al dente pasta has a low
GI, but it causes my blood sugar to go through the roof. So does
grapefruit, another supposedly low GI. These are totally separate
things. Insulin resistance is problematic, and it has nothing to do
with GI.

You supported my point in a roundabout way, dummy. Now go eat some carbs so you
can think straight.

Ignoramus20355 wrote:
Face it, you're not fat 'cause you ate too many carrots or drank too much orange
juice. You're fat because you don't get enough exercise and because you consume
way too many calories.

That fat people are fat because they eat too many calories is obvious,
trivial, and uninteresting.

The more interesting question is, what makes them eat more calories.

Lack of discipline, lack of knowledge, moral weakness.

For example, I am a slim person at normal weight (I am saying so just
so that you would not dismiss what I say as self excuses of a fat
person). I used to be fat but lost weight by eating less and eating
better and exercising.

And yet, I am an overeater and have to apply a lot of efforts to not
overeat. I limit my portions, even though at each meal I would like to
eat more, I eat a lot of low calorie vegetables, keep down carbs, do
not eat sugar etc.

Your inclination to overeat is a moral weakness.

That's why I call myself a "naturally fat" person.

I would call you an emotionally immature person or a person with flaws, but that
would be politically incorrect.

There is no particular emotional reason for my overeating,

At least that you've established.

and I am
sure that I overeat becaus some metabolic function or another is not
working right in my body.

I'm sure that's a very convenient excuse for you (like so many others); talk
about trivial and uninteresting, not to mention so common.

Whereas some people eat all they want, but fortunately they do not
want all that much.

So, saying that the only difference between fat people and slim people
is "gluttony"and immorality is stupid and inhelpful in really
understanding anything.

I'm sure it ruffles your feathers. Just remember that the truth may hurt, but
lies hurt more.

I do realize that you get off by thinking that you are upsetting fat
people,

I encourage you to go to Google and review some of my responses in aaev and afv
encouraging those trying to lose weight. I'm honest, but I'm also positive.

so the complexity of what I say may be lost on you,

No, and it wasn't complex at all (it was quite simple, really).

but
hopefully some other people can identify with what I am describing.

I'm sure they will since misery loves company. It's quite common to pass the
buck from oneself to "nature."