ASD Book Club - Thin for Life (Key #1)

Well Ladies and Gentlemen, today is officially November and time to kick off
the first installment of the ASD Book Club. The book we're reading is "Thin
for Life: 10 Keys to Success from People Who Have Lost Weight and Kept It
Off" by Anne M. Fletcher. All are welcome to participate or kill the
thread.

By popular request, we're doing the book one section at a time. Having
never participated in a book club let alone lead one I'm winging it here so
please jump in! I'll just summarize the chapter in this post - breaking it
into easily discussable sections.

Key to Success #1 - Believe That You Can Become Thin for Life
Summary:

This chapter starts out with a discussion of the success stories interviewed
for the book. The author started out with 160 people in the first edition.
People who lost at least 20 lbs and kept it off for a minimum of 3 years.
There are an additional 48 people included in this book. These 208 people
are referred to as "masters" throughout the book.

"They Break the Rules" addresses some commonly held notions about weight
control and maintenance, most of which were challenged by the success of the
masters.
Myth #1: If you've been overweight since childhood, it's next to imporssible
to lose weight and keep it off.
Myth #2: If you've dieted and failed may times before, there's little hope
of ever licking your weight problem.
Myth #3: If you do succeed at losing weight and keeping ti off, you'll have
to eat like a bird for the rest of your life.
Myth #4: In order to lose weight and keep it off, you hav eto become an
exercise fanatic.
Myth #5: It's really hard to lose weight once you pass the age of 40.
Myth #6: You can't lose weight on your own, let alone maintain weight loss.
Myth #7: Diets don't work - if you lose weight be going on a diet, you're
bound to gain it back.
Myth #8: If you hit a plateau while losing weight, there's little hope of
moving on.
Myth #9: If you start regaining weight, you're bound to gain it all back.
You should stay away from the scale.
Myth #10: If you don't stay at your original weight goal, then you're a
failure.

Why the "Failure Talk"?/Finding Success - a discussion of the weight
maintenance statistics and why they may be incorrectly skewed toward the
failures.

What Exactly is Maintenance? - a discussion on how to define maintenance

If You're Fat, It May Not Be Your Fault - But That Doesn't Mean You Can't Do
Something About It/What Have You Got to Lose? - a discussion on the
causes/reasons for obesity and how to overcome some obstacles.

The "Nondieting" Movement - a little about the nondieting perspective.

It's Your Choice/If You Think You Can, You Will - making the choice to lose
weight and believing in your ability to do it.


Opinions, thoughts, or comments on these topics as discussed in the book?
I'll add mine as we go, I just wanted to start off with a neutral jumping
off point.

Jenn

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:16:32 -0600, "JMA" wrote:


Opinions, thoughts, or comments on these topics as discussed in the book?
I'll add mine as we go, I just wanted to start off with a neutral jumping
off point.


I read the whole book after I bought it a few weeks back, and I marked
up the bits that made me want to comment, so here goes....

First, I found the book tremendously uplifting. It was refreshing to
read a book that was so optimistic in tone, challenging so many of the
things we're told so often - like that a string of previous failed
attempts doesn't mean you can't succeed in the end (although I'm
quite sure my lifetime overall loss is far higher than the 270 pounds
average quoted for those who finally succeeded!), that it's not more
or less a given conclusion that people who lose their weight will then
regain it, that age is no barrier to success - I loved the woman who
lost 97 pounds at the age of 69.

I liked the idea that you can use the experience gained in previous
attempts to achieve success in the end. I know I have a mass of
experience on what works, what doesn't work, nutritional information,
portion size, and probably most of all how I behave in certain
situations. Surely all this can only come in useful if I can really
harness it to my own advantage.

Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

I found the whole bit about maintenance very interesting as it tallied
quite closely with how I've always felt it should be - to define
maintenance as a range you've agreed with yourself that you'll keep
within, rather than a precise weight, and this is what successful
maintainers here on asd seem to do, too.

The point is made that "contrary to what some people think, weight
cycling has not been proven to increase the amount of fat tissue in
people who lose and regain weight". There doesn't seem to be any
scientific reference to back this up, so I wonder it it's true?

Gosh, it's difficult to comment on a whole chapter - I'm glad we're
not doing the whole book at once!

To sum up my feelings on chapter 1, there was a lot that was
encouraging and I didn't spot anything that I really disagreed with or
that didn't match quite well with my own thoughts and experiences. I
think it gets a bit more controversial later on. I love the use of
real life case studies, which always interests me.

janice

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:16:32 -0600, "JMA" wrote:


Opinions, thoughts, or comments on these topics as discussed in the book?
I'll add mine as we go, I just wanted to start off with a neutral jumping
off point.


I read the whole book after I bought it a few weeks back, and I marked
up the bits that made me want to comment, so here goes....

First, I found the book tremendously uplifting. It was refreshing to
read a book that was so optimistic in tone, challenging so many of the
things we're told so often - like that a string of previous failed
attempts doesn't mean you can't succeed in the end (although I'm
quite sure my lifetime overall loss is far higher than the 270 pounds
average quoted for those who finally succeeded!), that it's not more
or less a given conclusion that people who lose their weight will then
regain it, that age is no barrier to success - I loved the woman who
lost 97 pounds at the age of 69.

I liked the idea that you can use the experience gained in previous
attempts to achieve success in the end. I know I have a mass of
experience on what works, what doesn't work, nutritional information,
portion size, and probably most of all how I behave in certain
situations. Surely all this can only come in useful if I can really
harness it to my own advantage.

Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

I found the whole bit about maintenance very interesting as it tallied
quite closely with how I've always felt it should be - to define
maintenance as a range you've agreed with yourself that you'll keep
within, rather than a precise weight, and this is what successful
maintainers here on asd seem to do, too.

The point is made that "contrary to what some people think, weight
cycling has not been proven to increase the amount of fat tissue in
people who lose and regain weight". There doesn't seem to be any
scientific reference to back this up, so I wonder it it's true?

Gosh, it's difficult to comment on a whole chapter - I'm glad we're
not doing the whole book at once!

To sum up my feelings on chapter 1, there was a lot that was
encouraging and I didn't spot anything that I really disagreed with or
that didn't match quite well with my own thoughts and experiences. I
think it gets a bit more controversial later on. I love the use of
real life case studies, which always interests me.

janice

"janice" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:16:32 -0600, "JMA" wrote:

Opinions, thoughts, or comments on these topics as discussed in the book?
I'll add mine as we go, I just wanted to start off with a neutral jumping
off point.

I read the whole book after I bought it a few weeks back, and I marked
up the bits that made me want to comment, so here goes....

First, I found the book tremendously uplifting. It was refreshing to
read a book that was so optimistic in tone, challenging so many of the
things we're told so often - like that a string of previous failed
attempts doesn't mean you can't succeed in the end (although I'm
quite sure my lifetime overall loss is far higher than the 270 pounds
average quoted for those who finally succeeded!), that it's not more
or less a given conclusion that people who lose their weight will then
regain it, that age is no barrier to success - I loved the woman who
lost 97 pounds at the age of 69.

I appreciated the optimistic tone also. I am so sick of hearing about how
little chance I have of success because of either a. - the weight loss
method I initially chose or b. - whatever "statistics" are being spouted by
people (ok, mostly person) on this group who are mean, petty, little
****ants who derive pleasure at deeming others a failure.

The people in this group who I look up to as role models are the more
positive, overall happier people who are *always* encouraging others rather
than pointing out all of the negatives. I think most of us who spent our
lives overweight or obese have heard enough negative talk to last a
lifetime.

Some of what I marked in the book were statements like "Don't pay attention
to the odds." "If you think you can't you won't." "ignore people who say
you can't do it." Those are things I've copied down and have used as
affirmations the last several weeks after reading them.

I liked the idea that you can use the experience gained in previous
attempts to achieve success in the end. I know I have a mass of
experience on what works, what doesn't work, nutritional information,
portion size, and probably most of all how I behave in certain
situations. Surely all this can only come in useful if I can really
harness it to my own advantage.

Experience is the best teacher.

Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

Same here. I've been on the receiving end of negative crap most of my obese
life. Regaining some weight when my medical problems were out of control
was devistating to me. It was folks like you and others in this group
(minus one ignorant) who were able to help me realize that I wasn't a
failure and it helped me keep going and not give up.

In my job, I deal with a lot of kids who have the deck stacked against them.
If I promoted the "reality" of the failures that lie ahead of them, they'd
stop coming to school altogether. It should be the same for weight loss.
If I had dwelled on the "failure" part of my weight loss, I'd probably be
back at 300 lbs already rather than controlling my weight and my bulimia.

I found the whole bit about maintenance very interesting as it tallied
quite closely with how I've always felt it should be - to define
maintenance as a range you've agreed with yourself that you'll keep
within, rather than a precise weight, and this is what successful
maintainers here on asd seem to do, too.

My favorite part of that section was "Maintenance means much more than
*weight* maintenance. It includes the maintenance of other healthy lifestyle
behaviors, such as healthy eating patterns, exercise, reducing stress,
keeping healthy relationships and more." There are some people who are at a
healthy weight, but definitely not healthy people.

The point is made that "contrary to what some people think, weight
cycling has not been proven to increase the amount of fat tissue in
people who lose and regain weight". There doesn't seem to be any
scientific reference to back this up, so I wonder it it's true?

There are a ton of references in the back of the book, but they're not
footnoted or noted in any way so that definitely makes it difficult. This
isn't the first time I've heard it said though.

Gosh, it's difficult to comment on a whole chapter - I'm glad we're
not doing the whole book at once!

I agree.

To sum up my feelings on chapter 1, there was a lot that was
encouraging and I didn't spot anything that I really disagreed with or
that didn't match quite well with my own thoughts and experiences. I
think it gets a bit more controversial later on. I love the use of
real life case studies, which always interests me.

I did appreciate the discussion on "failure talk" also. The experts
interviewed felt that the negative statistics may not be a real picture of
the truth because of things like:
- the type of people who end up in research studies from which the
statistics are derived
- report averages that "blot out" the cases of success in a study
- broad conclusions from research studies with weight loss methods selected
by experimenters rather than by individuals using personal plans which tend
to be more successful.

Unlike people who rely on a study to tell them everything, I don't live in a
lab. I live in a multifaceted world with too many variables to be
reproduced in a lab or a study. So, a book like this is very much geared
toward an open minded person like me. The main thrust of the end of this
chapter was that it is all up to the individual - period.

Jenn

"janice" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:16:32 -0600, "JMA" wrote:

Opinions, thoughts, or comments on these topics as discussed in the book?
I'll add mine as we go, I just wanted to start off with a neutral jumping
off point.

I read the whole book after I bought it a few weeks back, and I marked
up the bits that made me want to comment, so here goes....

First, I found the book tremendously uplifting. It was refreshing to
read a book that was so optimistic in tone, challenging so many of the
things we're told so often - like that a string of previous failed
attempts doesn't mean you can't succeed in the end (although I'm
quite sure my lifetime overall loss is far higher than the 270 pounds
average quoted for those who finally succeeded!), that it's not more
or less a given conclusion that people who lose their weight will then
regain it, that age is no barrier to success - I loved the woman who
lost 97 pounds at the age of 69.

I appreciated the optimistic tone also. I am so sick of hearing about how
little chance I have of success because of either a. - the weight loss
method I initially chose or b. - whatever "statistics" are being spouted by
people (ok, mostly person) on this group who are mean, petty, little
****ants who derive pleasure at deeming others a failure.

The people in this group who I look up to as role models are the more
positive, overall happier people who are *always* encouraging others rather
than pointing out all of the negatives. I think most of us who spent our
lives overweight or obese have heard enough negative talk to last a
lifetime.

Some of what I marked in the book were statements like "Don't pay attention
to the odds." "If you think you can't you won't." "ignore people who say
you can't do it." Those are things I've copied down and have used as
affirmations the last several weeks after reading them.

I liked the idea that you can use the experience gained in previous
attempts to achieve success in the end. I know I have a mass of
experience on what works, what doesn't work, nutritional information,
portion size, and probably most of all how I behave in certain
situations. Surely all this can only come in useful if I can really
harness it to my own advantage.

Experience is the best teacher.

Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

Same here. I've been on the receiving end of negative crap most of my obese
life. Regaining some weight when my medical problems were out of control
was devistating to me. It was folks like you and others in this group
(minus one ignorant) who were able to help me realize that I wasn't a
failure and it helped me keep going and not give up.

In my job, I deal with a lot of kids who have the deck stacked against them.
If I promoted the "reality" of the failures that lie ahead of them, they'd
stop coming to school altogether. It should be the same for weight loss.
If I had dwelled on the "failure" part of my weight loss, I'd probably be
back at 300 lbs already rather than controlling my weight and my bulimia.

I found the whole bit about maintenance very interesting as it tallied
quite closely with how I've always felt it should be - to define
maintenance as a range you've agreed with yourself that you'll keep
within, rather than a precise weight, and this is what successful
maintainers here on asd seem to do, too.

My favorite part of that section was "Maintenance means much more than
*weight* maintenance. It includes the maintenance of other healthy lifestyle
behaviors, such as healthy eating patterns, exercise, reducing stress,
keeping healthy relationships and more." There are some people who are at a
healthy weight, but definitely not healthy people.

The point is made that "contrary to what some people think, weight
cycling has not been proven to increase the amount of fat tissue in
people who lose and regain weight". There doesn't seem to be any
scientific reference to back this up, so I wonder it it's true?

There are a ton of references in the back of the book, but they're not
footnoted or noted in any way so that definitely makes it difficult. This
isn't the first time I've heard it said though.

Gosh, it's difficult to comment on a whole chapter - I'm glad we're
not doing the whole book at once!

I agree.

To sum up my feelings on chapter 1, there was a lot that was
encouraging and I didn't spot anything that I really disagreed with or
that didn't match quite well with my own thoughts and experiences. I
think it gets a bit more controversial later on. I love the use of
real life case studies, which always interests me.

I did appreciate the discussion on "failure talk" also. The experts
interviewed felt that the negative statistics may not be a real picture of
the truth because of things like:
- the type of people who end up in research studies from which the
statistics are derived
- report averages that "blot out" the cases of success in a study
- broad conclusions from research studies with weight loss methods selected
by experimenters rather than by individuals using personal plans which tend
to be more successful.

Unlike people who rely on a study to tell them everything, I don't live in a
lab. I live in a multifaceted world with too many variables to be
reproduced in a lab or a study. So, a book like this is very much geared
toward an open minded person like me. The main thrust of the end of this
chapter was that it is all up to the individual - period.

Jenn

"Ignoramus1308" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:15:49 +0000, janice wrote:
Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

I also read the book some time ago and it is not a terrible book,
although, unlike you, I found the positive self talk and fake optimism
to be mildly irritating. I do not think that optimism, as opposed to
realism, leads to better results in anything measurable, such as
income, return on capital, weight loss and so on.

You have no idea what realism is. Realism is understanding that life is
multifaceted and not everything can be measured scientifically. Of course
*you* found the optimism irritating because you are a negative petty and
mean spirited individual who gets pleasure out of what you perceive as the
failure of others.

I agree with you -- and the book -- that it is a great idea to try to
choose an easily defensible target weight, rather than strive to have
the perfect figure, regardless of difficulty. If I am not mixing it
up, this book also points out that most people do not look like models,
at any weight. So losing weight to achieve great looks can be a big
source of disappointment.

If that were the case then why do you insult people who put on 2-3 or 8 lbs,
or more? Don't answer, we all know.

The first one is about Thin for Life. They refer to the National
Weight Control Registry and their studies. Unfortunately, as a member
of that registry, I must say that they have an agenda of promoting low
fat dieting. That is evident from their questionnaire. It had numerous
questions such as "do you try to keep high fat foods out of the
house", and so on. But it would not ask a question such as "do you try
to keep high CARB foods out of the house". So, a researcher looking at
answers to the questionnaires, would conclude something like "many
successful maintainers are low fatting", but it would be next to
impossible to conclude that at least some successful maintainers are
low carbing, because of the way the questionnaire is designed. I was
rather disappointed at that obvious partiality. So, I view all
conclusions based on that NWCR data as being somewhat suspect.

Because it interferes with your religion, we understand. At the time the
NWCR was established, low-carb was still fringe. Interesting how all of
those people still are maintaining on low fat though. It works for some,
just not for you. But in your world, that means it's wrong.

Somewhat similarly, these books dwell a lot on various psychological
attributes, which are no doubt important, and did not bother to
explore very deeply if the successful maintainers in fact have some
superior "metabolism", or some other bodily advantage.

Yes, that's your dream come true. Face it, they ate less and exercised
more. Interesting how doing real weightlifting (beyond calethenics) has
given me a "super" metabolism compared to where I was a mere 6 months ago.
Oh, I forgot, I'm just out of shape by your ASSumptions.

It is, therefore, possible that successful maintainers have some sort
of biological advantage, that allowed their superior attitude to
actually bring results. That is upsetting and not uplifting, and
demeans their accomplishment to some extent, but, quite possibly,
is true.

Not likely, but for you who has to find the cloud in every silver lining
it's definitely not a surprise. You go out of your way to spread misery and
negativity.

That they talk so much about psychology and much less about biology is
probably due to a "man with a hammer" syndrome. It is also easier and
cheaper to talk about psychology and discuss answers to psychological
questions, than it is to conduct metaboic studies, blood tests, deal
with real statistics, etc.

Yes, because dealing with the whole person, not just their numbers is
baaaaad. Emotions just suck and are so irrelevant in our lives. Psychology
is a real science - deal with it. I wonder if you're so negative on it
because someone actually has identified the plethora of issues you seem to
have.

Being human, I liked mention of some of the traits of successful
maintainers that I can identify with. Taking it one day at a time,
watching weight, making self a priority etc. That said, I do not
harbor great illusions that these simple traits alone would be enough
to make me maintain my weight loss for an extended period of time,
like a decade. I have to be on a diet that matches my biology and
lifestyle.

No one said any differently. You should see someone about that persecution
complex. BTW, I have my doubts about the human thing since humans are
generally not emotionally stunted robots.

I also know that I should not rely on exercise excessively, or else
the whole dieting thing will break as soon as I become unable to spend
enough time exercising, due to various life events. Exercise is great,
but it should not be the linchpin of the weight maintenance, it should
be an aide.

If you remembered the book correctly you'd know that it doesn't advocate
excessive exercise. It says specifically "Myth #4: In order to lose weight
and keep it off, you have to become an exercise fanatic." But as usual, you
aren't going to let a silly little thing like fact get in the way of your
overblown speculations.

As I read this book I was able to see people in this group - good, bad, and
otherwise. I knew *you* would have a problem with it since as I continued
to read I kept thinking - aha exactly the opposite of the crap that
ignoranus posts! That's when I realized what an excellent resource it was.

Jenn

"JMA" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus1308" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:15:49 +0000, janice wrote:
Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

I also read the book some time ago and it is not a terrible book,
although, unlike you, I found the positive self talk and fake optimism
to be mildly irritating. I do not think that optimism, as opposed to
realism, leads to better results in anything measurable, such as
income, return on capital, weight loss and so on.

You have no idea what realism is. Realism is understanding that life is
multifaceted and not everything can be measured scientifically. Of course
*you* found the optimism irritating because you are a negative petty and
mean spirited individual who gets pleasure out of what you perceive as the
failure of others.

I agree with you -- and the book -- that it is a great idea to try to
choose an easily defensible target weight, rather than strive to have
the perfect figure, regardless of difficulty. If I am not mixing it
up, this book also points out that most people do not look like models,
at any weight. So losing weight to achieve great looks can be a big
source of disappointment.

If that were the case then why do you insult people who put on 2-3 or 8
lbs,
or more? Don't answer, we all know.

The first one is about Thin for Life. They refer to the National
Weight Control Registry and their studies. Unfortunately, as a member
of that registry, I must say that they have an agenda of promoting low
fat dieting. That is evident from their questionnaire. It had numerous
questions such as "do you try to keep high fat foods out of the
house", and so on. But it would not ask a question such as "do you try
to keep high CARB foods out of the house". So, a researcher looking at
answers to the questionnaires, would conclude something like "many
successful maintainers are low fatting", but it would be next to
impossible to conclude that at least some successful maintainers are
low carbing, because of the way the questionnaire is designed. I was
rather disappointed at that obvious partiality. So, I view all
conclusions based on that NWCR data as being somewhat suspect.

Because it interferes with your religion, we understand. At the time the
NWCR was established, low-carb was still fringe. Interesting how all of
those people still are maintaining on low fat though. It works for some,
just not for you. But in your world, that means it's wrong.

Somewhat similarly, these books dwell a lot on various psychological
attributes, which are no doubt important, and did not bother to
explore very deeply if the successful maintainers in fact have some
superior "metabolism", or some other bodily advantage.

Yes, that's your dream come true. Face it, they ate less and exercised
more. Interesting how doing real weightlifting (beyond calethenics) has
given me a "super" metabolism compared to where I was a mere 6 months ago.
Oh, I forgot, I'm just out of shape by your ASSumptions.

It is, therefore, possible that successful maintainers have some sort
of biological advantage, that allowed their superior attitude to
actually bring results. That is upsetting and not uplifting, and
demeans their accomplishment to some extent, but, quite possibly,
is true.

Not likely, but for you who has to find the cloud in every silver lining
it's definitely not a surprise. You go out of your way to spread misery
and
negativity.

That they talk so much about psychology and much less about biology is
probably due to a "man with a hammer" syndrome. It is also easier and
cheaper to talk about psychology and discuss answers to psychological
questions, than it is to conduct metaboic studies, blood tests, deal
with real statistics, etc.

Yes, because dealing with the whole person, not just their numbers is
baaaaad. Emotions just suck and are so irrelevant in our lives.
Psychology
is a real science - deal with it. I wonder if you're so negative on it
because someone actually has identified the plethora of issues you seem to
have.

Being human, I liked mention of some of the traits of successful
maintainers that I can identify with. Taking it one day at a time,
watching weight, making self a priority etc. That said, I do not
harbor great illusions that these simple traits alone would be enough
to make me maintain my weight loss for an extended period of time,
like a decade. I have to be on a diet that matches my biology and
lifestyle.

No one said any differently. You should see someone about that
persecution
complex. BTW, I have my doubts about the human thing since humans are
generally not emotionally stunted robots.

I also know that I should not rely on exercise excessively, or else
the whole dieting thing will break as soon as I become unable to spend
enough time exercising, due to various life events. Exercise is great,
but it should not be the linchpin of the weight maintenance, it should
be an aide.

If you remembered the book correctly you'd know that it doesn't advocate
excessive exercise. It says specifically "Myth #4: In order to lose
weight
and keep it off, you have to become an exercise fanatic." But as usual,
you
aren't going to let a silly little thing like fact get in the way of your
overblown speculations.

As I read this book I was able to see people in this group - good, bad,
and
otherwise. I knew *you* would have a problem with it since as I continued
to read I kept thinking - aha exactly the opposite of the crap that
ignoranus posts! That's when I realized what an excellent resource it
was.

Jenn


Gotta love the hostility. Can you imagine a world where folks are focused
more on their own stuff than trying to figure out someone else's stuff?
That would be cool....

Anyway...back to the discussion, of which I can not make a comment since I
don't have the book and so must rely on you fine folks' responses to said
book.

Heidi

"JMA" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus1308" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:15:49 +0000, janice wrote:
Another point that struck me was to learn that many of the "masters"
had settled for a maintenance weight higher than their original goal.
I think this is something we need to be prepared to do if that's
what's going to work for us, and to realise it doesn't mean we are
"failures". In fact, very little of this book dwells on the idea of
failure, which can be such an enemy of success, in my experience. I'm
quite good at the negative self-talk

I also read the book some time ago and it is not a terrible book,
although, unlike you, I found the positive self talk and fake optimism
to be mildly irritating. I do not think that optimism, as opposed to
realism, leads to better results in anything measurable, such as
income, return on capital, weight loss and so on.

You have no idea what realism is. Realism is understanding that life is
multifaceted and not everything can be measured scientifically. Of course
*you* found the optimism irritating because you are a negative petty and
mean spirited individual who gets pleasure out of what you perceive as the
failure of others.

I agree with you -- and the book -- that it is a great idea to try to
choose an easily defensible target weight, rather than strive to have
the perfect figure, regardless of difficulty. If I am not mixing it
up, this book also points out that most people do not look like models,
at any weight. So losing weight to achieve great looks can be a big
source of disappointment.

If that were the case then why do you insult people who put on 2-3 or 8
lbs,
or more? Don't answer, we all know.

The first one is about Thin for Life. They refer to the National
Weight Control Registry and their studies. Unfortunately, as a member
of that registry, I must say that they have an agenda of promoting low
fat dieting. That is evident from their questionnaire. It had numerous
questions such as "do you try to keep high fat foods out of the
house", and so on. But it would not ask a question such as "do you try
to keep high CARB foods out of the house". So, a researcher looking at
answers to the questionnaires, would conclude something like "many
successful maintainers are low fatting", but it would be next to
impossible to conclude that at least some successful maintainers are
low carbing, because of the way the questionnaire is designed. I was
rather disappointed at that obvious partiality. So, I view all
conclusions based on that NWCR data as being somewhat suspect.

Because it interferes with your religion, we understand. At the time the
NWCR was established, low-carb was still fringe. Interesting how all of
those people still are maintaining on low fat though. It works for some,
just not for you. But in your world, that means it's wrong.

Somewhat similarly, these books dwell a lot on various psychological
attributes, which are no doubt important, and did not bother to
explore very deeply if the successful maintainers in fact have some
superior "metabolism", or some other bodily advantage.

Yes, that's your dream come true. Face it, they ate less and exercised
more. Interesting how doing real weightlifting (beyond calethenics) has
given me a "super" metabolism compared to where I was a mere 6 months ago.
Oh, I forgot, I'm just out of shape by your ASSumptions.

It is, therefore, possible that successful maintainers have some sort
of biological advantage, that allowed their superior attitude to
actually bring results. That is upsetting and not uplifting, and
demeans their accomplishment to some extent, but, quite possibly,
is true.

Not likely, but for you who has to find the cloud in every silver lining
it's definitely not a surprise. You go out of your way to spread misery
and
negativity.

That they talk so much about psychology and much less about biology is
probably due to a "man with a hammer" syndrome. It is also easier and
cheaper to talk about psychology and discuss answers to psychological
questions, than it is to conduct metaboic studies, blood tests, deal
with real statistics, etc.

Yes, because dealing with the whole person, not just their numbers is
baaaaad. Emotions just suck and are so irrelevant in our lives.
Psychology
is a real science - deal with it. I wonder if you're so negative on it
because someone actually has identified the plethora of issues you seem to
have.

Being human, I liked mention of some of the traits of successful
maintainers that I can identify with. Taking it one day at a time,
watching weight, making self a priority etc. That said, I do not
harbor great illusions that these simple traits alone would be enough
to make me maintain my weight loss for an extended period of time,
like a decade. I have to be on a diet that matches my biology and
lifestyle.

No one said any differently. You should see someone about that
persecution
complex. BTW, I have my doubts about the human thing since humans are
generally not emotionally stunted robots.

I also know that I should not rely on exercise excessively, or else
the whole dieting thing will break as soon as I become unable to spend
enough time exercising, due to various life events. Exercise is great,
but it should not be the linchpin of the weight maintenance, it should
be an aide.

If you remembered the book correctly you'd know that it doesn't advocate
excessive exercise. It says specifically "Myth #4: In order to lose
weight
and keep it off, you have to become an exercise fanatic." But as usual,
you
aren't going to let a silly little thing like fact get in the way of your
overblown speculations.

As I read this book I was able to see people in this group - good, bad,
and
otherwise. I knew *you* would have a problem with it since as I continued
to read I kept thinking - aha exactly the opposite of the crap that
ignoranus posts! That's when I realized what an excellent resource it
was.

Jenn


Gotta love the hostility. Can you imagine a world where folks are focused
more on their own stuff than trying to figure out someone else's stuff?
That would be cool....

Anyway...back to the discussion, of which I can not make a comment since I
don't have the book and so must rely on you fine folks' responses to said
book.

Heidi

"Heidi" wrote in message
...
Gotta love the hostility. Can you imagine a world where folks are focused
more on their own stuff than trying to figure out someone else's stuff?
That would be cool....

Anyway...back to the discussion, of which I can not make a comment since I
don't have the book and so must rely on you fine folks' responses to said
book.

Heidi

Yep, that's pretty much what happens when you jump into the middle of stuff.
Since he hides his posting history it's tough to go back and see all of the
friendly and supportive things he's done over time (/sarcasm off)

Jenn

"Ignoramus1308" wrote in message
...

You know, I post to some purely technical newsgroups, dealing with
pleasant topics and hobbies, and even there, there are some bitter
people and endless flamewars etc. It is not something that happens
only here.

But yet I am not alone in this group - you seem to bring it out in people
with your endless charm. Hey, even in other groups they think you're an
idiot.

Anyway...back to the discussion, of which I can not make a comment since
I
don't have the book and so must rely on you fine folks' responses to said
book.

You know, that book is not introducing something new like the
discovery of relativity. It discusses subjects that we already know a
bit about. So if you have an opinion about anything that is said here,
go ahead and say it!

There was a post summarizing the first chapter of the book for those that
didn't read it.

Jenn