Low carb diets

OmegaZero2003 wrote:

"Wayne S. Hill" wrote...

The problem I have with this is that there's a point, with
a very small number of neurons, where this distinction
vanishes.

First, I suspect that that type of system is uninteresting.

Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties
for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set
of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state
space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to
scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is
exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space
analysis techniques.

--
-Wayne

"Wayne S. Hill" wrote in message
...
OmegaZero2003 wrote:

"Wayne S. Hill" wrote...

The problem I have with this is that there's a point, with
a very small number of neurons, where this distinction
vanishes.

First, I suspect that that type of system is uninteresting.

Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties
for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set
of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state
space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to
scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is
exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space
analysis techniques.

Well - yeah - classifiers is a classic use for such.

I meant from a research_into_brains standpoint, not man-made *A* NNs applied
to other problems.


--
-Wayne

In article ,
Lyle McDonald wrote:

I can also report empirically the feedback I've gotten. This was from a
few years ago (on the lowcarb-l list) from folks comparing things like
Isocaloric (33/33/33) diets to Bodyopus (CKD) types of diets. These
were motivated bodybuilder/athletic types who are known for being anal
compulsive about their diet and who were using similar protein inakes
and caloric deficits (and weight training and the rest). At *most*, the
variance in fat loss/LBM loss was ~3 lbs over 12 weeks. That is, they
might report 3 lbs more fat lost and 3 lbs more LBM maintained over that period.

Adding:
a. Even then, the effects weren't consistent. Some folks did better on
CKD's, some folks better on Isocaloric (and lost more muscle on the
CKD). Meaning there was no consistent pattern with one diet being
absolutely superior.
.. . .
b. 3 lbs is within measurement error (sorry, this is the cynic in me
speaking). Hell, it's within the error of glycogen and water balance.

c. 3 lbs of fat vs LBM is hardly relevant for the majority of dieters.
For an athlete or bodybuilder, yeah, it matters. But without a
consistently superior diet or a way to know who will be ideally suited
for one or the other, the above is kind of meaningless (at this point,
there's no good way to apply it).

A consistent difference of 3 lbs would be worthwhile.

If the maximum difference measured is 3 lbs, and some measurements had
the opposite sign, then I'd guess the average is unde 1 lb. That's
well within the measurement error noise.

Seth
--
"There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate" -- Will Brink
Except sushi rice, seaweed, and wasabi.

"OmegaZero2003" wrote in message ws.com...
"Wayne S. Hill" wrote in message
...
OmegaZero2003 wrote:

"Wayne S. Hill" wrote...

The problem I have with this is that there's a point, with
a very small number of neurons, where this distinction
vanishes.

First, I suspect that that type of system is uninteresting.

Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties
for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set
of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state
space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to
scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is
exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space
analysis techniques.

Well - yeah - classifiers is a classic use for such.

I meant from a research_into_brains standpoint, not man-made *A* NNs applied
to other problems.

A lot of hype wrt that, too. Better to actually understand the
problem you're trying to solve than just slap an ANN on it.

Proton Soup

Proton Soup wrote:

"OmegaZero2003" wrote...
"Wayne S. Hill" wrote...

Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique
properties for state space analysis. The chief one is
this: given a set of inputs, each considered a different
dimension for the state space of the problem, ANNs have
the property of being able to scale each neighborhood of
the state space differently. This is exceedingly
difficult to achieve with explicit state space analysis
techniques.

Well - yeah - classifiers is a classic use for such.

I meant from a research_into_brains standpoint, not
man-made *A* NNs applied to other problems.

A lot of hype wrt that, too. Better to actually understand
the problem you're trying to solve than just slap an ANN on
it.

Although I agree with you, their ability to scale a state
space neighborhood-by-neighborhood is unmatched by other
available tools.

--
-Wayne

roger wrote:
...
I think it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of people
fare better on a diet that is balanced between carbs, protein and fat
with most of the carbs coming from vegetables, fruits and unprocessed
grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread/pasta, etc) and avoiding the
processed carbs.

Pasta is a highly processed food, as is bread. Wholemeal bread is almost
as glycemic as white bread.

...
It is usually the case that extremes are not good for you. So that
eliminates the extremely low fat, extremely low carb diets.

First you have to show what 'extreme' means. Otherwise it is just name
calling. The real question is what is optimal.

Tim Josling

pete wrote:

Lyle McDonald wrote in message .. .

Which makes for a tremendously ****ing boring diet, which most are
unlikely to stick to.

It does suck indeed. For the avg. dieter it is not realistic for most
(although some such as Dr. Colker and his Greenwich diet, promote this
type of low carb, low fat, high protein diet), and from the responses
to the book,some people do indeed follow it. Even Elzi said above she
was fond of eating salad and lean meats frequently.

As am I. Doesn't change my statement.

Or the fact that the *majority* aren't going to follow such a diet in
the long-term.
Keep in the forefront of your mind that yo'ure getting a very skewed
version of reality hanging out in places like mfw or what have you.
Almost by definition, you tend to get the successes (and the
pathological anal compulsive head cases who would follow such a diet)
and that can give a very skewed vision of reality.

The simple fact is that most people stick with most behavioral changes
beyodn a few weeks. The odds of them sticking to it when it's
monotonous as all hell (b/c the food choices are so limited) is far less
likely. Yeah, fine, bodybuilders and athletes will do it without
problem. I don't have a problem with it but I don't thrive on variety
(except in my porn), neither do you, neither does Elzi. I suspect, most
people will want and need more variety than a lowcarb/lowfat/high
protein/high veggie diet can provide and that means low adherence.

I'm sure you did, I didn't read through the whole thread. But isn't
this point huge, I mean, to me this is enough to make the point FOR a
low carb diet.

It makes a point for something OTHER than the standard modern diet.
You can readily reduce the monstrous modern caloric intakes without
removing all carbs from the diet. Small qualitiative changes are
frequently sufficient without jumping from one extreme to the other.

Are you seeing my point?
Compared to the SAD, antyhing is better. Seriously, it would be hard to
come up with a worse diet if you tried. Ok, maybe lard and table sugar
but, hell, that's not far from what people are eating already. Improving
upon that is not difficult by any stretch but I don't think it requires
going to the lowcarb extreme either.

Moderation and all that rot.

Better in the sense that for many people, they enjoy higher fat foods
vs. "clean" carbs and super-lean proteins. If having to choose between
the two, most people I know would choose a steak and broccoli w/
garlic and olive oil vs. a baked potato and skinless chicken breast.

Yeah, but most would rather have the steak, broccoli with butter, potato
with more butter and fried chicken.

True. But i'm talking in the context of comparing someone on a "diet",
I won't argue the Std. Am. Diet is crap, i'm talking in the context of
what 2 different dieters would "typically follow", either a low carb
approach w/ moderate to high fat or a low fat approach w/
moderate-higher carbs.

The universe can count to more than 2.
I'm sure you can as well.

It's also been argue that the Earth is flat but that doesn't make it true.

Well, this is going along w/ what several others believe as well.
Poliquin puts 50-75% of his clients on low carbs, in part b/c he does
believe everyone has some degree of insulin resistance.

Poliquin also said in one of the Q&A's I read last night that he rates
his clients based on the 5 chinese types (he said he felt the Q asker
was a 'fire' type). And that changing shoes alters fiber recruitment
and that a 13:11 DHA/EPA ratio will break strength plateaus.

Which makes me think that he's making up a lot of **** as he goes along.

there is a tendency in this industry for people to say stupid **** to
appear different or cutting edge.

It is my
understanding Doc Serrano and Dipasquale do the same, for the same
reason.

Well, Dipasquale made up his mind that his anabolic diet was optimal
about 10 years ago and has been fitting all modern research into that
belief. I'm friends with Serrano and, let's just say, I don't agree
with everything he has to say. This is one of those places.

The article I posted a while back by Dr. Ron Rosedale and his
transcript on "Insulin and It's Metabolic Effects", talks about his
success treating diabetes patients

yeah, sure, diabetes. I'm down with low carb diets for diabetes.

and his belief that everyone is
"pre-diabetic".

This is the same type of nonsense that folks use to sell all manners of
snake oil.
It's a bunch of bull****. It's like defining everyone as 'nutrient
deficient' to sell vitamins and minerals.

I personally don't think it's hard to believe that
most people have this problem. For example, we have (i believe) a 60+%
obesity rate in our country. Of course they are one the SAD diet w/
high fat and refined carbs, little activity. But the point being is
they are eating high sat. fat, which worsens insulin sensitivity. High
sugar and refined carbs, worsens things. High bodyfat, adaptions from
this cause insulin resistance, right?? So Isn't most of our population
"insulin resistant" to some degree b/c of thier weight and standard
diet.

I ahven't looked at hte numbers recently. Last one I saw, in terms of
clinical insulin resistances was in the 25% range. It may be higher now.

A huge confound (demonstrated in other studies) being the weight loss,
which is really the key player. On lowcarb diets where weight is NOT
lost, blood lipid profiles typically worsen.

Lyle, what studies do you have on handy or what researchers should I
lookfor on medline to find references to this. I'd be interested in
learning more, I wasn't aware of worsened blood profiles in low carb
dieters at maintenance calories.

Hoffer LJ et. al. Metabolic effects of very low calorie weight reduction
diets. J Clin Invest

Krehl WA et. al. Some metabolic changes induced by low carbohydrate
diets. Am J Clin Nutr (1967) 20: 139-148.

Golay A et al. Weight-loss with low or high carbohydrate diet? Int J
Obes Relat MetabDisord. (1996) 20: 1067-1072.

Phinney SD et. al. The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis
without caloric
restriction: physical and biochemical adaptations. Metabolism (1983) 32: 757-768.

Would be good starting points.

Also, what types of fats were eaten.

As with the current crop of studies, subjects were basically given the
Atkins diet guidelines and told to follow them. meaning lots of sat
fats and dietary cholesterol.


I don't doubt u, but it's just hard to imagine a low carb diet of lean
meats, monounsaturated fats and EFA's, and low gi veggies at
mantenance calories worsening the blood profile.

yeah, but now you're making requirements on low carb diets that I assure
you the AVERAGE low carb dieter is absolutely NOT following. Someone
following Atkins or what have you is not eating anything near the
nutrient profile you listed above.

So you can't have it both ways, specifying healthy nutrients for a
lowcarb diet but not allowing them to be specificied for a non-low carb diet.

Indeed. ANother question, for you and Elzi. She was talking about the
damage from glycation. Dr. Rosedale discussed this in his article
supporting a very low carb diet. Does glycation always occur from the
ingestion of carbs and proteins, and what exactly is the damage done
from this process when it does occur.

Not my area of expertise, ask someone who cares.

Also, overall aren't most carb sources aside from veggiesand some
fruits causing more ROS that can result in damage and accelerate
ageing. Are you aware of studies comparing ROS formation from a low
carb diet vs. a low fat diet?

Not my area of expertise, ask someone who cares.

Look, I don't want you to misunderstand me, there's zero doubt in my
mind that the OVErconsumption of OVERLy refined foods is doing more harm
than good. I simply don't feel it's automatically necessary to jump to
the otehr extreme to achieve what needs to achieved. Is it necessary in
some cases? Absolutely? All of them? I don't think so.

Lyle

Seth Breidbart wrote:

In article ,
Lyle McDonald wrote:

I can also report empirically the feedback I've gotten. This was from a
few years ago (on the lowcarb-l list) from folks comparing things like
Isocaloric (33/33/33) diets to Bodyopus (CKD) types of diets. These
were motivated bodybuilder/athletic types who are known for being anal
compulsive about their diet and who were using similar protein inakes
and caloric deficits (and weight training and the rest). At *most*, the
variance in fat loss/LBM loss was ~3 lbs over 12 weeks. That is, they
might report 3 lbs more fat lost and 3 lbs more LBM maintained over that period.

Adding:
a. Even then, the effects weren't consistent. Some folks did better on
CKD's, some folks better on Isocaloric (and lost more muscle on the
CKD). Meaning there was no consistent pattern with one diet being
absolutely superior.
. . .
b. 3 lbs is within measurement error (sorry, this is the cynic in me
speaking). Hell, it's within the error of glycogen and water balance.

c. 3 lbs of fat vs LBM is hardly relevant for the majority of dieters.
For an athlete or bodybuilder, yeah, it matters. But without a
consistently superior diet or a way to know who will be ideally suited
for one or the other, the above is kind of meaningless (at this point,
there's no good way to apply it).

A consistent difference of 3 lbs would be worthwhile.

If the maximum difference measured is 3 lbs, and some measurements had
the opposite sign, then I'd guess the average is unde 1 lb. That's
well within the measurement error noise.

You'll have to translate this into retard for me cuz I have no clue what
you're saying.

Lyle

Tim Josling wrote:

roger wrote:
...
I think it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of people
fare better on a diet that is balanced between carbs, protein and fat
with most of the carbs coming from vegetables, fruits and unprocessed
grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread/pasta, etc) and avoiding the
processed carbs.

Pasta is a highly processed food, as is bread. Wholemeal bread is almost
as glycemic as white bread.

don't try to introduce facts into roger the retard's nonsense.


...
It is usually the case that extremes are not good for you. So that
eliminates the extremely low fat, extremely low carb diets.

First you have to show what 'extreme' means. Otherwise it is just name
calling. The real question is what is optimal.

Optimal depends on the needs of the individual, simple as that.

Lyle

In article , Lyle McDonald
wrote:

pete wrote:
The simple fact is that most people stick with most behavioral
changes
beyodn a few weeks.

Glad I'm not "most people" as I enter year five of keeping off the
weight, lifting and doing Pilates.

--
Diva
********
Completing 4 years of maintenance