Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:07:49 +0000, tcomeau wrote:

SadMu_n wrote in message
. ..
On 22 Jan 2004 18:02:47 -0800, (tcomeau) wrote:

Last I heard was that fat was what caused satiation. And carbs that
caused high levels of insulin, which causes hunger. The only thing
complicating this simple concept is peoples unreasonable adherence to
the calories fallacy. The calories math doesn't, hasn't and will never
be a valid predictor of weight loss or gain in humans.

lol

tunderbar rewrites the Laws of Thermodynamics.

It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a closed
system. The human body is not a closed system.

Thermodynamics apply to open systems, and in any case, one could treat
((body+intake)-(body+output+work+heat)) as a closed system. Some studies
do, by locking the whole package in a sealed insulated room so they can
get heat and CO2 outputs.

That said, while the Laws of Thermodynamics are quite clear about
waste heat and fix the theoretical limit of efficiency of heat engines,
by themselves they say nothing about the actual efficiency of any
biological systems, either as a heat engines or as a chemical energy
storage devices.

Food calories are measured by burning samples in closed containers. Not
much to anybody's surprise, most people don't work quite that way.

Martin
--
Martin Golding | Studies indicate that undernutrition increases lifespan.
DoD #236 | Eat good, die young. Leave a big corpse.

In response to Martin Golding's post:

snip

Food calories are measured by burning samples in closed containers.
Not much to anybody's surprise, most people don't work quite that way.

Martin

So the chemists don't know ****? g

The carbs, calories, etc. left in fecal matter have to be counted too.

--
Stephen S.
331 / 286 / 220 - as of 21 Jan. 04
LC since 28 Sept. 03
http://dragonfen.com/diet
--------------------------------

It was an excellent show, for those in the US it should be available soon on
the BBC web

My take aways we

1) Proves the 1st law of thermodynamics still applies. Theres no magic to
weight loss its calorie deficit every time
2) That the diet supresses craving for excess calories and research should
next focus on why this is
3) There is no proof yet of long term side effects but implies it could be
bad and this too should be a focus of research

The factor it did not account for was meal frequency and metabolism. I'm
told that eating many small meals rather than few large meals, sustains
metaboloc activity, thus increases the systems average work rate. So more
calories get burnt on average

Rgds


"Diarmid Logan" wrote in message
om...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm

Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

The controversial and popular Atkins diet works for reasons that Dr
Atkins may not have fully understood, the BBC 2 programme Horizon has
discovered.

Through a series of scientific experiments the programme shows that
although the diet allows people all the fat and protein they want,
they actually eat as few calories as people on low fat diets.

And the reason for this, according to recent research is because the
quantity of protein the regime encourages, acts like an appetite
suppressant.

The meat, fish and eggs in the Atkins diet control hunger and stop
people eating their usual quantity of calories.

The theory behind Dr Atkins' diet is that by cutting down on starchy
foods like potatoes, bread and pasta and eating mainly protein and
fats like meat, eggs and cheese you can eat as much as you want and
still lose weight.

Dr Atkins even said there was no need to worry about calories.

The idea that people could gorge on as many calories as they desire
and still lose the pounds brought Dr Atkins much criticism and even
prompted some scientists to call his diet "scientific heresy".

Horizon teamed up with the University of Kansas and commissioned a
scientific investigation to test Dr Atkins' most controversial theory.

This states that on his diet you actually burn more calories than
usual - allowing you to lose more weight.

Dr Atkins had two ideas about where the extra calories were going.
Firstly, he believed you burn more calories when your body uses fats
and proteins as fuel.

If this is true, says Dr Mary Vernon, of the Atkins Physician Council,
it makes exercise less important than usual.

"You wouldn't have to increase your exercise at all because your body
would be working harder, so that you could literally sit in your
armchair and lose weight."

Dr Atkins also believed that on his diet you lose unused calories by
peeing them away, as part of a process known as ketosis, which happens
when you stop eating starchy foods and sugar.

In Horizon's investigation identical twins were put on different
diets, one on the Atkins diet and one on a conventional low fat diet.
Each was fed identical amounts of calories for two weeks.

The twins were then locked inside a sealed chamber so that Professor
Joseph Donnelly could calculate how quickly their bodies were burning
calories.

Over 24 hours the twin on the Atkins diet did lose more calories than
the twin on low fat, but only 22.

Professor Donnelly even checked the twins' urine for calories and
found that the Atkins dieter had lost less than a single calorie more
than his brother on low fat.

Donnelly concluded that: "the differences were too small to suggest
there's anything significant going on".

Even though this research is at an early stage, there is little
evidence for Dr Atkins' wasted calorie theories.

Horizon examines other studies that reveal the real reason scientists
believe the Atkins diet is effective.

New results from research conducted on the popular BBC series 'Diet
Trials' offer the first clue.

The study examined the Atkins diet and three low fat, low calorie
diets.

All four diets worked, but Dr Joe Millward at the University of Surrey
who headed up the research, discovered the secret to why Atkins
dieters were losing weight.

"The Atkins dieters were eating less calories, in exactly the same way
as those going to the slimming clubs on their low fat diets."

Without apparently trying, people on the Atkins diet were eating less
than they would normally.

Scientists are now more interested than ever in what makes us eat
less. They have concluded that there is something about the Atkins
diet that controls hunger.

Research has shown that fat is the least filling food. But new work in
Denmark is showing exactly what kinds of food may control hunger.

Professor Arne Astrup, from the Royal Veterinary & Agricultural
University in Copenhagen, built a supermarket for a special study to
find the secret of appetite control.

Professor Astrup's study focused on being able to eat as much as you
want.

He put one group of shoppers on a high protein diet and one on a high
carbohydrate diet.

He was surprised to find that the people eating more protein lost
significantly more weight.

"The reason they lost more weight was because they consumed fewer
calories, despite the fact they had free access to all the food they
wanted."

Increasing the amount of meat, fish and eggs in the diet may not only
be the answer to our hunger pangs, but the secret to how the Atkins
diet works.

Perhaps without realising it, Dr Atkins stumbled across the secret of
appetite control, by discovering a high protein diet.

The programme also investigates whether or not the Atkins diet is
dangerous.

With no long term studies on the diet, any possible health risks of
the diet are, so far, unproven.

Horizon: The Atkins Diet will be shown Thursday January 22nd at 9pm on
BBC2.

On 23 Jan 2004 12:10:12 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

Largest Mu_n wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 07:31:39 -0800, (tcomeau) wrote:

Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.

Eat 10,000 a day and call me when you can no longer see your feet.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

sigh.... you poor idiot....

Extremes do not prove or disprove anything other than the extreme.


So would you please point out any metabolic lab study that shows that
a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss as you keep
claiming?

Moosh

On 23 Jan 2004 12:07:49 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

SadMu_n wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 18:02:47 -0800, (tcomeau) wrote:

Last I heard was that fat was what caused satiation. And carbs that
caused high levels of insulin, which causes hunger. The only thing
complicating this simple concept is peoples unreasonable adherence to
the calories fallacy. The calories math doesn't, hasn't and will never
be a valid predictor of weight loss or gain in humans.

lol

tunderbar rewrites the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Hey, I believe him, don't you?

lol

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a closed
system. The human body is not a closed system.

Where does it state that the "conservation of energy principle"
applies only to a closed system?

And what do you understand by a closed system?
Not what thermodynamics understands.
The human body can be studied as a closed system. It depends what you
measure and how rigorously. Bathroom scales don't cut it, sorry.

Moosh

On 22 Jan 2004 07:31:39 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

(Diarmid Logan) wrote in message . com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm

Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

The controversial and popular Atkins diet works for reasons that Dr
Atkins may not have fully understood, the BBC 2 programme Horizon has
discovered.

Through a series of scientific experiments the programme shows that
although the diet allows people all the fat and protein they want,
they actually eat as few calories as people on low fat diets.

And the reason for this, according to recent research is because the
quantity of protein the regime encourages, acts like an appetite
suppressant.

The meat, fish and eggs in the Atkins diet control hunger and stop
people eating their usual quantity of calories.

The theory behind Dr Atkins' diet is that by cutting down on starchy
foods like potatoes, bread and pasta and eating mainly protein and
fats like meat, eggs and cheese you can eat as much as you want and
still lose weight.

Dr Atkins even said there was no need to worry about calories.

The idea that people could gorge on as many calories as they desire
and still lose the pounds brought Dr Atkins much criticism and even
prompted some scientists to call his diet "scientific heresy".

Horizon teamed up with the University of Kansas and commissioned a
scientific investigation to test Dr Atkins' most controversial theory.

This states that on his diet you actually burn more calories than
usual - allowing you to lose more weight.

Dr Atkins had two ideas about where the extra calories were going.
Firstly, he believed you burn more calories when your body uses fats
and proteins as fuel.

If this is true, says Dr Mary Vernon, of the Atkins Physician Council,
it makes exercise less important than usual.

"You wouldn't have to increase your exercise at all because your body
would be working harder, so that you could literally sit in your
armchair and lose weight."

Dr Atkins also believed that on his diet you lose unused calories by
peeing them away, as part of a process known as ketosis, which happens
when you stop eating starchy foods and sugar.

In Horizon's investigation identical twins were put on different
diets, one on the Atkins diet and one on a conventional low fat diet.
Each was fed identical amounts of calories for two weeks.

The twins were then locked inside a sealed chamber so that Professor
Joseph Donnelly could calculate how quickly their bodies were burning
calories.

Over 24 hours the twin on the Atkins diet did lose more calories than
the twin on low fat, but only 22.

Professor Donnelly even checked the twins' urine for calories and
found that the Atkins dieter had lost less than a single calorie more
than his brother on low fat.

Donnelly concluded that: "the differences were too small to suggest
there's anything significant going on".

Even though this research is at an early stage, there is little
evidence for Dr Atkins' wasted calorie theories.

Horizon examines other studies that reveal the real reason scientists
believe the Atkins diet is effective.

New results from research conducted on the popular BBC series 'Diet
Trials' offer the first clue.

The study examined the Atkins diet and three low fat, low calorie
diets.

All four diets worked, but Dr Joe Millward at the University of Surrey
who headed up the research, discovered the secret to why Atkins
dieters were losing weight.

"The Atkins dieters were eating less calories, in exactly the same way
as those going to the slimming clubs on their low fat diets."

Without apparently trying, people on the Atkins diet were eating less
than they would normally.

Scientists are now more interested than ever in what makes us eat
less. They have concluded that there is something about the Atkins
diet that controls hunger.

Research has shown that fat is the least filling food. But new work in
Denmark is showing exactly what kinds of food may control hunger.

Professor Arne Astrup, from the Royal Veterinary & Agricultural
University in Copenhagen, built a supermarket for a special study to
find the secret of appetite control.

Professor Astrup's study focused on being able to eat as much as you
want.

He put one group of shoppers on a high protein diet and one on a high
carbohydrate diet.

He was surprised to find that the people eating more protein lost
significantly more weight.

"The reason they lost more weight was because they consumed fewer
calories, despite the fact they had free access to all the food they
wanted."

Increasing the amount of meat, fish and eggs in the diet may not only
be the answer to our hunger pangs, but the secret to how the Atkins
diet works.

Perhaps without realising it, Dr Atkins stumbled across the secret of
appetite control, by discovering a high protein diet.

The programme also investigates whether or not the Atkins diet is
dangerous.

With no long term studies on the diet, any possible health risks of
the diet are, so far, unproven.

Horizon: The Atkins Diet will be shown Thursday January 22nd at 9pm on
BBC2.

Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.


You are probably right.

So please tell us of any metabolic lab study that shows that a
hypercaloric diet can ever result in fat storage loss.

Moosh

(Diarmid Logan) wrote in message . com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm

Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

There is no secret. There is clear and compelling scientific evidence
that the reason why a low-carbohydrate/low-glycemic diet leads to
weight loss is due to the reasons that Barry Sears suggests (read his
books for lists of studies), and it is related to insulin release in
response to high blood sugar (which signals fat storage) and the
body's preference for using sugar first over protein or fat for energy
when there is sugar in the bloodstream. Most nutritionists and
doctors have never even been familiarized with the literature
surrounding this and continue to recycle the same old belief that
calories are calories, regardless of the source.

The body's preference for using sugar first when protein and fat are
also present leads to problems with fat, protein, sugar and
cholesterol being left behind in the bloodstream. As an example, a
high carbohydrate diet has been proven to be the cause of abnormally
high levels of tryptophan in the blood. Also, vast histories of
experiments show that insulin drips into veins of lab animals causes
build-up of cholesterol in blood vessels and symptoms of heart
disease. This is not disputable. Sugar is being drawn into cells
leaving other things behind.

There is also pro-establishment propaganda going on which explains
much of this. It is not by accident that the guidelines in the food
pyramid developed by the department of agriculture help to maximize
profit for the food industry . People who pay attention to the news
will be aware of the numerous articles noting loss of profit for
processed food manufacturers recently due to the Atkins diet
popularity. Following a Zone, Atkins, or similar diet means touring
the periphery of the store and not going down the aisles unless it's
for atkins products. What does this mean for Betty Crocker, Nabisco,
Kellogg, OreIda, Coca-Cola?

While many of the people on the Atkin's diet are consuming less
calories than before, many people are actually consuming more and
still losing weight. The answer lies in understanding the mechanisms
of insulin signalling and sugar metabolism, and much of what has been
learned about all of this has been learned in the last decade.
Recently, aging itself has been linked to these issues, and
experiments in animals have shown that careful control of blood sugar
and insulin release can lead to slower aging and leaner animals.
There are also conditions like Syndrome X which more or less prove the
applicability to humans.

On 24 Jan 2004 03:15:56 -0800, (rs) posted:

(Diarmid Logan) wrote in message . com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm

Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

There is no secret. There is clear and compelling scientific evidence
that the reason why a low-carbohydrate/low-glycemic diet leads to
weight loss is due to the reasons that Barry Sears suggests (read his
books for lists of studies), and it is related to insulin release in
response to high blood sugar

Where does this come from? Must be syndrome X?

(which signals fat storage) and the
body's preference for using sugar first over protein or fat for energy
when there is sugar in the bloodstream.

There is ALWAYS sugar in the bloodstream. Try hypoglycemia!
Not pleasant!

Most nutritionists and
doctors have never even been familiarized with the literature
surrounding this and continue to recycle the same old belief that
calories are calories, regardless of the source.

Huh? Have you written to a medical school about this oversight?


The body's preference for using sugar first when protein and fat are
also present leads to problems with fat, protein, sugar and
cholesterol being left behind in the bloodstream. As an example, a
high carbohydrate diet has been proven to be the cause of abnormally
high levels of tryptophan in the blood. Also, vast histories of
experiments show that insulin drips into veins of lab animals causes
build-up of cholesterol in blood vessels and symptoms of heart
disease. This is not disputable. Sugar is being drawn into cells
leaving other things behind.

Is this "voodoo" nutrition?

There is also pro-establishment propaganda going on which explains
much of this. It is not by accident that the guidelines in the food
pyramid developed by the department of agriculture help to maximize
profit for the food industry . People who pay attention to the news
will be aware of the numerous articles noting loss of profit for
processed food manufacturers recently due to the Atkins diet
popularity.

So meat, dairy, protein, and so on are not the product of the
agriculture industry? What then?

Following a Zone, Atkins, or similar diet means touring
the periphery of the store and not going down the aisles unless it's
for atkins products.

Are you equating a Zone diet, (40% carbs), with Atkins?

What does this mean for Betty Crocker, Nabisco,
Kellogg, OreIda, Coca-Cola?

And for the beef industry, dairy industry? Wheat has 12% protein, BTW.

While many of the people on the Atkin's diet are consuming less
calories than before, many people are actually consuming more and
still losing weight.

So can YOU show this metabolic lab study which shows that a
hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss?

The answer lies in understanding the mechanisms
of insulin signalling and sugar metabolism, and much of what has been
learned about all of this has been learned in the last decade.

Example? I think you've missed something from decades ago.

Recently, aging itself has been linked to these issues, and
experiments in animals have shown that careful control of blood sugar
and insulin release can lead to slower aging and leaner animals.
There are also conditions like Syndrome X which more or less prove the
applicability to humans.

Well, yes....

Moosh

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:07:13 GMT, posted:

writes:
On 23 Jan 2004 12:07:49 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a
closed system. The human body is not a closed system.

Where does it state that the "conservation of energy principle"
applies only to a closed system?

In any text that covers thermodynamics. However, some conclusions can
be drawn anyway; the previous poster is incorrect.

Energy is conserved whatever. Over what arbitrary boundaries energy
transfers are measured, determines what a "closed system" is.

And what do you understand by a closed system?

A closed system is any system which has no energy sources or
sinks. The body is not "closed" because food provides an external
source of energy, and the toilet provides an external sink (!).

However, a locked room containing food for a month and a chemical
toilet IS a closed system.

Exactly!
Draw the boundaries and measure the energy transfers.

The human body can be studied as a closed system. It depends what you
measure and how rigorously.

Right.

I've been waiting many months for TC to point out ANY metabolic lab
study to show that a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss.
No show, but he still persists.

Moosh

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:18:36 GMT, posted:

"Robin Smith" writes:
1) Proves the 1st law of thermodynamics still applies. Theres no
magic to weight loss its calorie deficit every time...

Moosh wrote:
So please tell us of any metabolic lab study that shows that a
hypercaloric diet can ever result in fat storage loss.

I'm curious--when was ASDLC invaded by this crowd? I've been reading
here on-and-off for four years or more, and have never encountered
this before.

ASDLC? OK, I looked above I'm posting on smn.

In the past, it was well recognized that calories are not
irrelevant--that eating 5,000 cal/day will not result in weight
loss

It will if you burn 5,001 cal/day.

--but it was also recognized, as most of us experienced, that the
same calorie budget had different weight-loss effects depending upon
its composition. I've gained on 2200 cal/day with 50% or more of
calories from CHO, and I've lost on 2200 cal/day with ~5% of calories
from CHO. Others have had similar experiences.

So can you point us to any metabolic lab studies that confirm your
suspicions?

Lately, it appears that the majority here are convinced that calorie
deficit is the be-all, end-all of weight loss--and that the only
function of reduced CHO is to reduce apetite.

Apetite is voluntary. If you absorb more calories than you expend, you
gain weight. Never been faulted, unless you have some evidence I've
not yet seen.

Moosh also wrote:
Try protein, glucose in the blood, and stomach distension. Fat can
help maintain stomach distension a bit longer. Its effect is only
secondary

I thought we'd put the idea that a stomach full of sawdust can produce
satiety.

Huh? Doesn't really matter what it is full of (non-toxic, of course),
and that you have sufficient glucose and amino acids in the
bloodstream

Apparently that idiot Ornish is still making converts. (Hint:
many people who lack adequate nutrition adopt strategies to distend
the stomach in hopes of relieving their hunger, such as drinking as
much water as they can hold. It doesn't work.)

Well many aboriginal people actually eat things like clay, but there
you go. It won't completely make the pangs go away, but it certainly
helps, apparently.

I miss the old group. Where has it gone?

Which group are you talking about? The low cal? Haven't seen
crossposting before?

Moosh