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#1
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_Keeping it off_ book
Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I needed, but I
bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary webpage goes away. Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping. my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet. Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much more comfortable. "Ignoramus13725" wrote in message ... I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon. The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes what is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as people who - lost over 20% of body weight - kept it off for 2 years - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc. There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain weight, and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain successfully for 2 years. Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters. It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So, they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average) success, so, hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their experience. All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what works. The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself, although it has been getting a tad better later. i |
#2
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"Ignoramus26161" wrote in message
... One thing that I disagreed with, in that book, is that they push low fat dieting using extremely idiotic reasoning. (saying something like you can eat 2.2 times more grams of bread than fat, for the same calories, so, bread is better than fat) That's a very common line of reasonning. You almost find the same one, with people claiming you should stay away for calorie dense food (chocolate, nuts, cheese...), because it will not satiate your hunger. The logic is that you would need *volume* to feel satiated, rather than plain old calories. That's this kind of reasonning that is at the root of the low fat approach : fats are more than twice as caloric, so they are denser, so they should be avoided in favor of less dense food. However my experience has been that things like cheese are highly satisfying and give lasting satiety. But, I do not take diet advice from psychologists. Good psychologists who work on eating disorders usually know good nutritionists, and vice-versa. In an ideal situation, the should work as a team. My another guess is that the successful losers described in the book were actually near normal people, forced to overeat by some absurd psychological conditions and not by their biology. My personnal guess is that a *lot* of fat people belong to that category. Otherwise, we would not see such an increase in the obesity rate. A lot of obese people *also* have an eating disorder (bingeing, hyperphagia, bulimia, cognitive distorsion...), beyond merelly eating too much. At least, in my case, I know the psychological issues far outweight any biological reasons, including diabete. It's not like overeating was my first attempt at dealing with psychological issues/attempting to hurt myself. Whereas, say, someone with more screwed up metabolism would not do as well on the described diets and all resolve in the world would not help that person. I don't think you can cut obesity into two distinct categories like this. I think the line eventually blurs. Being obese brings its own psychological problems (low self-esteem, hostility from others) and so does dieting (binary thinking, compulsions...). So, eventually, many purely biological obesities will become compounded with psychological issues. Likewise, many psychological obesities will eventually develop biological issues (insulin resistance...). Maybe that's why the study is showing such a "high" success rate on the dieters who do things on their own, rather than the low success rate of those following a plan or a doctor. Doing things on your own has the advantage that you're not bounded by any given theory. A doctor/plan will be plagued by the hammer syndrom; a nutritionist will see nutritional problems, a psychologist will see psychological problems... On the other hand, a dieter going along his own path remains open to all the different possibilities. As the study states, even integrating contradicting approaches is not a problem for them. Psychology is a field where it is hard to make statements well founded in evidence. Psychiatry is supposed to be a science. But I agree that it is harder to do a perfect clinical study, though you can certainly build reasonnably scientific psychiatric experiences. However, cognitive psychology and beheavioural therapy have shown a success rate about as good (or as bad) as the other dieting methods, they start slowler, but usually end up being decent (again, decent by usual low success rates) in maintainance. |
#3
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"Ignoramus26161" wrote in message
... One thing that I disagreed with, in that book, is that they push low fat dieting using extremely idiotic reasoning. (saying something like you can eat 2.2 times more grams of bread than fat, for the same calories, so, bread is better than fat) That's a very common line of reasonning. You almost find the same one, with people claiming you should stay away for calorie dense food (chocolate, nuts, cheese...), because it will not satiate your hunger. The logic is that you would need *volume* to feel satiated, rather than plain old calories. That's this kind of reasonning that is at the root of the low fat approach : fats are more than twice as caloric, so they are denser, so they should be avoided in favor of less dense food. However my experience has been that things like cheese are highly satisfying and give lasting satiety. But, I do not take diet advice from psychologists. Good psychologists who work on eating disorders usually know good nutritionists, and vice-versa. In an ideal situation, the should work as a team. My another guess is that the successful losers described in the book were actually near normal people, forced to overeat by some absurd psychological conditions and not by their biology. My personnal guess is that a *lot* of fat people belong to that category. Otherwise, we would not see such an increase in the obesity rate. A lot of obese people *also* have an eating disorder (bingeing, hyperphagia, bulimia, cognitive distorsion...), beyond merelly eating too much. At least, in my case, I know the psychological issues far outweight any biological reasons, including diabete. It's not like overeating was my first attempt at dealing with psychological issues/attempting to hurt myself. Whereas, say, someone with more screwed up metabolism would not do as well on the described diets and all resolve in the world would not help that person. I don't think you can cut obesity into two distinct categories like this. I think the line eventually blurs. Being obese brings its own psychological problems (low self-esteem, hostility from others) and so does dieting (binary thinking, compulsions...). So, eventually, many purely biological obesities will become compounded with psychological issues. Likewise, many psychological obesities will eventually develop biological issues (insulin resistance...). Maybe that's why the study is showing such a "high" success rate on the dieters who do things on their own, rather than the low success rate of those following a plan or a doctor. Doing things on your own has the advantage that you're not bounded by any given theory. A doctor/plan will be plagued by the hammer syndrom; a nutritionist will see nutritional problems, a psychologist will see psychological problems... On the other hand, a dieter going along his own path remains open to all the different possibilities. As the study states, even integrating contradicting approaches is not a problem for them. Psychology is a field where it is hard to make statements well founded in evidence. Psychiatry is supposed to be a science. But I agree that it is harder to do a perfect clinical study, though you can certainly build reasonnably scientific psychiatric experiences. However, cognitive psychology and beheavioural therapy have shown a success rate about as good (or as bad) as the other dieting methods, they start slowler, but usually end up being decent (again, decent by usual low success rates) in maintainance. |
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Cubit wrote:
|| Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I || needed, but I bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary webpage || goes away. || || Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on || eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping. || || my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e || || I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet. || Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories || to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much || more comfortable. || Keep in mind that what is reported in that book is just one study and what it reports, while certainly interesting, shouldn't be taken as gospel truth. I personally feel that if I don't put considerable focus on my diet (i.e., what & how much I eat) on a constant basis that I will just drift back to 367 lbs or die on the way. I think that's just the way it is for me. More research needs to be done along the lines of what's in this book. I'm going to buy a copy, too. || || "Ignoramus13725" wrote in || message ... ||| I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan ||| Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon. ||| ||| The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at ||| ||| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm ||| ||| The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes ||| what ||| is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as ||| people who ||| ||| - lost over 20% of body weight ||| - kept it off for 2 years ||| - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight ||| ||| The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they ||| think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc. ||| ||| There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because ||| so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain ||| weight, ||| and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to ||| authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain ||| successfully for 2 years. ||| ||| Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those ||| successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not ||| done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic ||| differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters. ||| ||| It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful ||| people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So, ||| they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that ||| did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical ||| experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average) ||| success, so, ||| hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their ||| experience. ||| ||| All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what ||| works. ||| ||| The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on ||| any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some ||| point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware ||| of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my ||| experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes ||| little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself, ||| although it ||| has been getting a tad better later. ||| ||| ||| i |
#5
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My guess is that if you stop at 200 lbs and walk even a little bit
every day, and do 20 pushups per day, you'd be able to eat 2000 calories, maybe more. I don't think that a formerly fat person can be ever converted to a truly normal person. It is disconcerting to think that I am already on statistically unlikely ground. However, I feel I have an eclectic mosaic of the truth, even if I don't have scientific proof. I am projecting a very lean self for the rest of my life. Time will tell. What if the genetic design map takes into account the body type needed by a hunter? Is it possible, that when ingesting a diet consistent with a very good hunting season, the body adapts by dropping body fat that might hinder the physical running needed for hunting? My guess is that hunters ate lots of raw fat from kills. My hypothesis is that a high fat diet (without modern carbs) will trigger the body I envision. I'm also hoping that such a genetic mechanism might be unable to distinguish the difference between lard and cheese. Gawd, I would love to be saying "I told you so" someday. Dr. Taller used blood tests to confirm compliance (or not) in his high fat low carb patients. He claimed that *all* of his complying patients lost weight. He said that those eating such a diet bottom out at 11% body fat. He used safflower oil for much of the fat in his diets. This encourages me to believe that any type of fat will work. Each of the high fat proponents seems to pick a different fat source for their theory. I avoid polyunsaturated oils (like safflower oil) because of the association with cancer. I wish I could find a mayonnaise that is made from coconut oil. I love mayonnaise. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LowCarbHighFat/ |
#6
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Ig,
Reading that book (which I found in our public library) really helped me. Though the focus is on the psychology, there's quite a bit on the physiology, too. It was interesting to me that the successful dieters lost weight on all kinds of different regimens and diets, but that the researchers found the common threads no matter what the food plan. I also found it helpful to see that contrary to what the people selling gym memberships tell you, exercise was helpful mostly after the weight was lost, and it was not necessary for the weight loss to occur. Most women started exercising after losing a lot of weight (like I did) and did very well. I know so many people at the gym who work out four times a week and have only lost 2 or 3 pounds all year (these are people who need to lose 30 or 40 lbs.) So I liked having it made clear that exercise is NOT the magic bullet for weight loss, calorie restriction is. I also found it interesting to look at the calorie levels at which people lost and maintained no matter WHAT diet. It's worth remembering that the book was written back when low carbing was just going out of fashion so many of the long term diet success stories in the book were low carbers. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.7 . Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm "Ignoramus13725" wrote in message ... I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon. The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes what is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as people who - lost over 20% of body weight - kept it off for 2 years - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc. There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain weight, and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain successfully for 2 years. Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters. It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So, they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average) success, so, hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their experience. All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what works. The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself, although it has been getting a tad better later. i |
#7
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Roger,
One thing that book didn't discuss, because the lab research hadn't been done was the effect of the massively readjusted Set Point on long term maintenance. I read somewhere that there may be a strong variation in whether or not people have a strong set point. Those that do, may find it impossible to maintain massive weight losses, and they are the ones who show up at obesity clinics. The people who successfully lose and maintain do not, which skews the statistics. I sense a certain amount of set point going on in my body--there's no question it wants to weigh more and I can't just eat without thinking the way I could when I was younger and not gain. But I think that long term success is more possible than some of the more recent books and lab research would suggest. That book is great because they did find a large group of people who kept a lot of weight off for a long time, which is what we all want to know is possible. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.7 . Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm "Roger Zoul" wrote in message ... Cubit wrote: || Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I || needed, but I bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary webpage || goes away. || || Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on || eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping. || || my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e || || I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet. || Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories || to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much || more comfortable. || Keep in mind that what is reported in that book is just one study and what it reports, while certainly interesting, shouldn't be taken as gospel truth. I personally feel that if I don't put considerable focus on my diet (i.e., what & how much I eat) on a constant basis that I will just drift back to 367 lbs or die on the way. I think that's just the way it is for me. More research needs to be done along the lines of what's in this book. I'm going to buy a copy, too. || || "Ignoramus13725" wrote in || message ... ||| I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan ||| Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon. ||| ||| The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at ||| ||| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm ||| ||| The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes ||| what ||| is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as ||| people who ||| ||| - lost over 20% of body weight ||| - kept it off for 2 years ||| - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight ||| ||| The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they ||| think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc. ||| ||| There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because ||| so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain ||| weight, ||| and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to ||| authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain ||| successfully for 2 years. ||| ||| Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those ||| successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not ||| done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic ||| differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters. ||| ||| It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful ||| people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So, ||| they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that ||| did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical ||| experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average) ||| success, so, ||| hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their ||| experience. ||| ||| All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what ||| works. ||| ||| The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on ||| any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some ||| point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware ||| of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my ||| experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes ||| little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself, ||| although it ||| has been getting a tad better later. ||| ||| ||| i |
#8
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Roger,
One thing that book didn't discuss, because the lab research hadn't been done was the effect of the massively readjusted Set Point on long term maintenance. I read somewhere that there may be a strong variation in whether or not people have a strong set point. Those that do, may find it impossible to maintain massive weight losses, and they are the ones who show up at obesity clinics. The people who successfully lose and maintain do not, which skews the statistics. I sense a certain amount of set point going on in my body--there's no question it wants to weigh more and I can't just eat without thinking the way I could when I was younger and not gain. But I think that long term success is more possible than some of the more recent books and lab research would suggest. That book is great because they did find a large group of people who kept a lot of weight off for a long time, which is what we all want to know is possible. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.7 . Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm "Roger Zoul" wrote in message ... Cubit wrote: || Great stuff. I felt the summary probably covered everything I || needed, but I bought a copy anyway, just in case the summary webpage || goes away. || || Amazon used books were too pricey, but I found a hardback copy on || eBay for $3.50 plus $2 shipping. || || my ended eBay purchase: http://tinyurl.com/6ny8e || || I'm concerned that I too spend too much time focusing on my diet. || Maybe that will change, when I'm no longer restricting my calories || to a 1400 per day average. Someday, 1600 per day should be much || more comfortable. || Keep in mind that what is reported in that book is just one study and what it reports, while certainly interesting, shouldn't be taken as gospel truth. I personally feel that if I don't put considerable focus on my diet (i.e., what & how much I eat) on a constant basis that I will just drift back to 367 lbs or die on the way. I think that's just the way it is for me. More research needs to be done along the lines of what's in this book. I'm going to buy a copy, too. || || "Ignoramus13725" wrote in || message ... ||| I am reading a book _Keeping it Off_ by Robert Colvin and Susan ||| Olson. This is an old book from 1985, I bought it used from Amazon. ||| ||| The book is excellent and a summary of it is available at ||| ||| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/success.htm ||| ||| The book is a great read and I highly recommend it. It describes ||| what ||| is common amongst successful maintainers, which are defined as ||| people who ||| ||| - lost over 20% of body weight ||| - kept it off for 2 years ||| - are not more than 5 lbs away from their lowest weight ||| ||| The discuss the traits amongst those successful people, how they ||| think about weight loss, what they do, what they do not do etc. ||| ||| There are very few books about weight maintenance, probably because ||| so few people can get to the point where they need to maintain ||| weight, ||| and even fewer of them actually maintain the loss. According to ||| authors, only 2% of those who started dieting can maintain ||| successfully for 2 years. ||| ||| Unfortunately, the authors are psychologists, and looked at those ||| successful dieters from only psychological point of view. (I am not ||| done with the book yet). I wish they tried to look at the somatic ||| differences, if any, between successful and unsuccessful dieters. ||| ||| It also does not do a good enough job at comparing those successful ||| people with controls who have not managed to be as successful. So, ||| they could fall into a trap of describing their common traits that ||| did not make a difference. Both of them had prior clinical ||| experience with "treating" obese dieters, with little (average) ||| success, so, ||| hopefully, they could detect those success traits based on their ||| experience. ||| ||| All in all, it is a great common sense book that describes what ||| works. ||| ||| The great majority of maintainers lost weight on their own, not on ||| any sort of commercial programs. All of them had an epiphany at some ||| point, which has been my experience exactly. They are all very aware ||| of their current weight and they actively manage it. Again, my ||| experience. They moved away from food obsessions and food takes ||| little place in their life, which I cannot say yet about myself, ||| although it ||| has been getting a tad better later. ||| ||| ||| i |
#9
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:03:21 GMT, "Cubit" wrote:
What if the genetic design map takes into account the body type needed by a hunter? Is it possible, that when ingesting a diet consistent with a very good hunting season, the body adapts by dropping body fat that might hinder the physical running needed for hunting? My guess is that hunters ate lots of raw fat from kills. My hypothesis is that a high fat diet (without modern carbs) will trigger the body I envision. I'm also hoping that such a genetic mechanism might be unable to distinguish the difference between lard and cheese. Am I correct in thinking, though, that our ancestoral hunters probably only ate every few days, even in a season of plenty? Lions and other big carnivores still do that now. They stuff themselves with meat and then lie around for hours until it's time to go out and hunt again when they get hungry a few days later. Also they expend an awful lot of energy on unsuccessful chases that don't result in food. Are you planning to follow a pattern like this? Janice |
#10
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:03:21 GMT, "Cubit" wrote:
What if the genetic design map takes into account the body type needed by a hunter? Is it possible, that when ingesting a diet consistent with a very good hunting season, the body adapts by dropping body fat that might hinder the physical running needed for hunting? My guess is that hunters ate lots of raw fat from kills. My hypothesis is that a high fat diet (without modern carbs) will trigger the body I envision. I'm also hoping that such a genetic mechanism might be unable to distinguish the difference between lard and cheese. Am I correct in thinking, though, that our ancestoral hunters probably only ate every few days, even in a season of plenty? Lions and other big carnivores still do that now. They stuff themselves with meat and then lie around for hours until it's time to go out and hunt again when they get hungry a few days later. Also they expend an awful lot of energy on unsuccessful chases that don't result in food. Are you planning to follow a pattern like this? Janice |
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