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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 04:54 AM
Chad C.
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Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

Hi there,

I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a
refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate protein,
super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am able to do the
treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes (depending on the movie
I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 degrees incline. I do this for
mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects. One
thing I wish to avoid however is muscle catabolization. I am running a
caloric deficit at the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will
lose muscle in such a scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical
condition (I think), only very slightly overweight. My
probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen
can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can
lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's
needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with
burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or
muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet,
or is it even a problem? Etc.

Thanks folks,

-Chad



  #2  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 05:00 AM
Roger Zoul
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Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

you can minimize muscle loss by eating sufficient protein and weight
training (you might even gain some muscle mass). running a calorie deficit
with additional cardio is more likely to result in muscle loss...

Chad C. wrote:
:: Hi there,
::
:: I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a
:: refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate
:: protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am
:: able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes
:: (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3
:: degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course
:: the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid however is
:: muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment,
:: and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a
:: scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical condition (I
:: think), only very slightly overweight. My
:: probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know
:: glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical
:: exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to
:: keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will
:: it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this
:: protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can
:: this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a
:: problem? Etc.
::
:: Thanks folks,
::
:: -Chad


  #3  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 05:10 AM
Skinny
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Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

I'm very interested in this too, tho more for mental energy than
physical. Low carbing has improved my health in many ways, and cut out
some energy 'lows', but I seldom feel quite up to strenuous mental work,
doing projects, etc.

Skinny
---------------


On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:54:51 -0700, "Chad C."
wrote:

Hi there,

I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a
refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate protein,
super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am able to do the
treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes (depending on the movie
I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 degrees incline. I do this for
mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects. One
thing I wish to avoid however is muscle catabolization. I am running a
caloric deficit at the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will
lose muscle in such a scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical
condition (I think), only very slightly overweight. My
probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen
can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can
lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's
needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with
burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or
muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet,
or is it even a problem? Etc.

Thanks folks,

-Chad



  #4  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 05:25 AM
Roger Zoul
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Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

How long have you been LCing?

Skinny wrote:
:: I'm very interested in this too, tho more for mental energy than
:: physical. Low carbing has improved my health in many ways, and cut
:: out
:: some energy 'lows', but I seldom feel quite up to strenuous mental
:: work, doing projects, etc.
::
:: Skinny
:: ---------------
::
::
:: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:54:51 -0700, "Chad C."
:: wrote:
::
::: Hi there,
:::
::: I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a
::: refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate
::: protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am
::: able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes
::: (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and
::: 3 degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of
::: course the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid
::: however is muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at
::: the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose
::: muscle in such a scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good
::: physical condition (I think), only very slightly overweight. My
::: probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know
::: glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical
::: exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to
::: keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will
::: it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this
::: protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can
::: this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a
::: problem? Etc.
:::
::: Thanks folks,
:::
::: -Chad


  #5  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 05:36 AM
Chad C.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

Thanks for your comments Roger. Is it because cardio might result in say,
300 calories burned in the space of 30 minutes, and lipolysis can't do that
sufficiently so then muscle protein is catabolized for immediate energy use
and dietary protein is ignored? Why is dietary protein ignored in such a
case?

-Chad

"Roger Zoul" wrote in message
...
you can minimize muscle loss by eating sufficient protein and weight
training (you might even gain some muscle mass). running a calorie deficit
with additional cardio is more likely to result in muscle loss...

Chad C. wrote:
:: Hi there,
::
:: I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a
:: refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate
:: protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am
:: able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes
:: (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3
:: degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course
:: the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid however is
:: muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment,
:: and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a
:: scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical condition (I
:: think), only very slightly overweight. My
:: probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know
:: glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical
:: exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to
:: keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will
:: it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this
:: protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can
:: this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a
:: problem? Etc.
::
:: Thanks folks,
::
:: -Chad




  #6  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 11:40 AM
Hannah Gruen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

Chad C. wrote:

My
probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen
can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can
lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's
needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with
burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or
muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet,
or is it even a problem? Etc.


From what I've read, training while eating a low-carbohydrate diet will
generally result in enhanced ability to burn fat - dietary and/or body
fat - for energy while exercising. Note that this doesn't happen
automatically, but that you need to train for it over a periof of time,
many weeks to months. Like any other training. But for most people, in
time efficiency will increase, and that has certainly been my
experience. It makes sense, after all, that humans would be adapted
through evolution to be able to run long distances in order to pursue
game even on a (ketogenic) paleolithic winter diet of mostly meat and fat.

I particularly liked reading "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman, one of the
world's all-time best ultra-long-distance runners. Mittleman's claim is
that you need to train your body to run primarily on fat, because you
generally have a substantial store of that, compared to limited
glycogen/carb stores. He doesn't eat an extremely low carbohydrate diet,
nor would he be expected to, given his level of activity, but definitely
emphasizes olive oil, nuts, protein foods as well as low-starch
vegetables. Definitely lower-carb than the SAD. It's a good read for
anyone interested in endurance athletic performance activites, such as
life

HG
  #7  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 03:05 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:40:51 -0400, Hannah Gruen
wrote:

Chad C. wrote:

My
probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen
can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can
lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's
needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with
burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or
muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet,
or is it even a problem? Etc.


From what I've read, training while eating a low-carbohydrate diet will
generally result in enhanced ability to burn fat - dietary and/or body
fat - for energy while exercising. Note that this doesn't happen
automatically, but that you need to train for it over a periof of time,
many weeks to months. Like any other training. But for most people, in
time efficiency will increase, and that has certainly been my
experience. It makes sense, after all, that humans would be adapted
through evolution to be able to run long distances in order to pursue
game even on a (ketogenic) paleolithic winter diet of mostly meat and fat.

I particularly liked reading "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman, one of the
world's all-time best ultra-long-distance runners. Mittleman's claim is
that you need to train your body to run primarily on fat, because you
generally have a substantial store of that, compared to limited
glycogen/carb stores. He doesn't eat an extremely low carbohydrate diet,
nor would he be expected to, given his level of activity, but definitely
emphasizes olive oil, nuts, protein foods as well as low-starch
vegetables. Definitely lower-carb than the SAD. It's a good read for
anyone interested in endurance athletic performance activites, such as
life

HG


Working out aerobically while in calorie deficit is going to burn body
fat and dietary protein. There is a limit to the number of calories
you can expend per minute though. When I was first starting out with
low carb it was real tough to burn any faster than about .04 calories
per pound of body weight per minute without feeling stale and tired.

If you search for information about fasting and muscle catabolism you
will find some good explanations about the problems of keeping muscle
while in calorie deficit.

Although tearing yourself up sprinting or weight lifting to excess is
not going to be very productive without cycling carbs you can tone and
do less energetic cardio workouts to rebuild some of the lost muscle.

Trying to build muscle while in calorie deficit is always going to be
a compromising venture. Having a carb up every few weeks and ripping
yourself out at full effort may give you a psychological boost that is
worth a week of weight gain though. You get a nice pump from the
extra glycogen in the muscles and some people say it resets metabolism
at a higher rate.


  #8  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 06:03 PM
wilson
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Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

"Chad C." wrote in message ...
I do this for
mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects.


I am curious about mental health benefits.

I too have found myself more "stable" on LC. My agoraphobia just *went
away*. What I had thought for years were panic or phobic symptoms,
were the symptoms of my blood sugar crashing when I was out and about
- when I was most likely to eat sugar and high carb foods.

Interestingly, I have Attention Deficit Disorder, but for years was
not believed to have the hyperactive variant.

Since being LC, I am discovering I *AM* hyperactive... now that my
physical energy level is a lot higher the hyperactivity is very, very
obvious.
  #9  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 06:50 PM
Doug Freyburger
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Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

Chad C. wrote:

I'm eating a high fat, moderate protein,
super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet.


Why not increase your carbs on schedule per the Atkins core process?
It is more effective at fat loss than staying low no matter that
you want less to be more, that you believe less to be more.

I am able to do the
treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes (depending on the movie
I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 degrees incline. I do this for
mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects.


This is well under marathon levels.

One
thing I wish to avoid however is muscle catabolization. I am running a
caloric deficit at the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will
lose muscle in such a scenario.


Atkins-like low carbing generally loses less lean than other weight
loss systems. Should not be an issue. If your sweat begins to
smell of amonia, you have begun burning lean.

I know glycogen
can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can
lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's
needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with
burning protein as well?


This is where my comment about marathoners comes in. Marathons
are designed so that no human can complete them while having any
stored glycogen left. Marathons are long enough that a marathoner
*must* do at least part of the run burning fat not carbs. And
they do that. So certainly ketosis *can* deliver all of the
energy you need. As long as you're in good enough shape or the
exercise you're doing is far enough from a marathon. By your
description you're not in terrible shape and your example is
well below the marathon level. You're fine.

Will this protein come from dietary sources, or
muscle tissue, or both?


With burned fuel, there is no difference. It has to be digested
first and once digested the body makes no distinction.

Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet,


Sure, but best to do it at OWL levels not Induction levels. You
will have access to more energy before you "hit the wall" by
running out of glycogen *and* moving to OWL somehow helps the
fat burning get more efficient.

or is it even a problem?


Not once you're past 1) 20 grams or 2) 2 week.
  #10  
Old April 22nd, 2004, 06:55 PM
Hannah Gruen
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Posts: n/a
Default Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs

wrote:
Working out aerobically while in calorie deficit is going to burn body
fat and dietary protein. There is a limit to the number of calories
you can expend per minute though. When I was first starting out with
low carb it was real tough to burn any faster than about .04 calories
per pound of body weight per minute without feeling stale and tired.


Yeah, but if you keep at it your capacity will generally increase a lot.
It took me a couple months to get to the point that I was good on long
climbs on my bike, but eventually I actually had more endurance than I
ever did on high carb. It actually kind of surprised me, actually, as to
that point I'd never been much on endurance.

From little snippits I've picked up from the infamous Lyle and a couple
other mfw lunatics, it appears that muscle tissue can also use fatty
acids for energy to some extent, and that storage and use of same
improves with conditioning. I've never followed up on that, but perhaps
this is what happens with some people, if not everybody. I understand
that this is a rather under-studied area, which I suppose is why you get
so many different opinions. All I know is that after a couple months
adaptation to exercise on a low-carb diet, my endurance and speed/power
was vastly improved, even over an all-the-pasta-you-can-eat diet.

Of course we're only discussing aerobic exercise here. Anaerobic is
another thing altogether.

If you search for information about fasting and muscle catabolism you
will find some good explanations about the problems of keeping muscle
while in calorie deficit.


Yes, if you add in an ongoing, consistent calorie deficit, that's
another element. Although, many people do sort of naturally (not
intentionally) cycle calories, so that they're hypocaloric for a day or
two, then hyper caloric. Even while losing weight overall. I think
that's one of the dangers of eating too few carbs and getting into deep
ketosis, your appetite reduces to the point you don't give yourself
those hypercaloric days. Probably not good in the long run, and
certainly will not promote mucle retention let alone building.
Personally I'm not into having big muscles, being female and all, just
being reasonably strong.

Although tearing yourself up sprinting or weight lifting to excess is
not going to be very productive without cycling carbs you can tone and
do less energetic cardio workouts to rebuild some of the lost muscle.


But see, you're into anaerobic stuff with sprinting and weight lifting.
I think cycling calories is probably somewhat more important than
cycling carbs, in terms of minimizing muscle loss, although effectively
both probably need to happen if you want gains. One thing I hang on to
is that eating a moderately low-carb way, and doing really awesome
amounts of aerobic exercise (like competatively running around 100
miles/day for day after day) didn't give him that kind of skinny,
scarecrow look a lot of (presumably high carb) long distance runners
get. In all the photos I've seen of him, he looks good, moderately
muscled, not what I think of as the "runner look".

Trying to build muscle while in calorie deficit is always going to be
a compromising venture. Having a carb up every few weeks and ripping
yourself out at full effort may give you a psychological boost that is
worth a week of weight gain though. You get a nice pump from the
extra glycogen in the muscles and some people say it resets metabolism
at a higher rate.


I've never been a big fan of carb-ups, but I also am not very positive
about long-term very low carb eating, either. I think there are a lot of
people eating 20 or 30 g/day and feeling cruddy and tired who could do a
lot better up at 50 or 60 or even higher, and still keep their appetite
in control well enough to lose weight. And frankly, appetite control is
the primary advantage of low-carb dieting. Also, feeling really well is
inductive to a higher activity level. But I know there are a lot of
people who feel their periodic carbups do them a lot of good.

HG
 




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