Taubes' Ten Inescapable Conclusions

When I hiked the Appalachian Trail, I would pig out quite a lot when we
stopped at trail towns to resupply.

I am immensely interested in the Appalachian Trail hiking. How long between
showers? Can you resupply your Camelbaks? Is there a problem with sanitary
facilities due to the age of the trail and its popularity? Could I take a
hammock instead of a tent and make out okay? Did you mostly eat cold food?



"Excess" is in the eyes and mind of the beholder, or speaker.

That's certainly true and is why I am skeptical of someone remarking on
"excessive exercising." I have no idea what that means.

Pat in TX

"Pat" wrote

How's your riding going this year? I'm on tap to complete 6 or seven
full centuries this year, even with less overall (through the week)
riding.

Bleah! It's either raining or the wind is blowing so hard, or a new one:
fog! We've had over 3 times the usual amount of rain this year so far, and
if it keeps going this way, it'll set a record.

Well, we have essentially a drought here.

Pat wrote:
When I hiked the Appalachian Trail, I would pig out quite a lot when we
stopped at trail towns to resupply.


I am immensely interested in the Appalachian Trail hiking. How long between
showers? Can you resupply your Camelbaks? Is there a problem with sanitary
facilities due to the age of the trail and its popularity? Could I take a
hammock instead of a tent and make out okay? Did you mostly eat cold food?


A great web resource is a site specifically oriented to the Appalachian
Trail. It is called White Blaze or http://www.whiteblaze.com and it
takes its name from the fact that the trail is marked by white blazes
(paint marks) on trees or rocks or signs.

This resource lists, among many other things, the towns and hostels
located on or near the trail where you may find showers and food to buy.

Another resource is a trail guide which is a small book updated every
years which lists all of the key points along the trail. This includes
the shelters which are typically 3 walled roofed places where you can
sleep (on wood floors mostly) every night or just the nights when you
don't want to fiddle with the tent of tarp. It also lists the towns you
pass through or come near with distances you need to thumb or hike or
call and connect with a shuttle which if sometimes free. The town
descriptions include some maps, lists of where to stay and where to eat
and any resupply or "outfitter" stores to buy or repair equipment.

One guide is called the "Appalachian Trail Guide", and there is a small
pocket sized lesser book called the "Appalachian Trail Data Book". There
is another trail guide available from an organization that manages the
trail and the individual hiking clubs that maintain it. The name might
be the Appalachian Trail Council http://www.atctrailstore.org. You can
even download a free .PDF version and print out what you want
http://wwwlappalachiantrail.org. There will be a brand new guide
published this year by a new publisher/author and advance word indicates
that it will be quite good.

Some of these things can be bought at www.amazon.com, for example. The
new editions won't be out till maybe January or February 2008.

Ultra Lightweight backpacking equipment makes the trip go so much
easier, if you have the skills and equipment. Hammocks are fairly
popular, and hommock guys are pretty enthusiastic about them, almost
religious. I don't think I have met anyone who used a hammock and
stopped using it.

"Lighten Up" by Don Ladigin is a small cartoonish book telling you about
Light and Ultralight backpacking.

"Beyond Backpacking" by Ray Jardine is excellent, but aged and out of
print and rare, but you can get it through interlibrary loan from
anywhere in the USA.

Toilet facilities are almost exclusively at the shelters. They range
from moldering privvies to pit toilets to "take your trowel and go over
to that designated area".



This last year was the worst drought of the last 100 years on the
southern end of the trail in Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee and much
of Virginia .....

Since you hike largely on the ridges of the mountains, or on the way up
or on the way down, streams are not very common. Most water is obtained
from springs which is often a key factor in setting the location for a
shelter -- to have water from a spring or a stream.

These shelters range from 5 to 15 miles apart. The guide or data book
tell you all that.

You will have no real use for a GPS.

I found an altimeter/watch important to estimate when this next damn
long hill will finally be over. There are lots of "false summits" which
can drain your spirit when you realize that you aren't at the top when
you thought you would be.


Some people make a practice of eating cold, no stoves. For example, a
diet of just various power bars and nuts and gorp and other stuff.

Most people cook, and today the butane cannister stoves are pretty
standard and there is a huge fan and user base of alcohol stoves, often
made at home from beer and beverage and cat food cans.

Butane, white gas and alcohol are usually readily available in resupply
towns and locations. The trail towns can be from 20 to 70 miles apart.

Some people send food to themselves care of General Delivery at the
trail towns, The guide book and other books on hiking the trail tell you
about that, and Whiteblaze.com has a ton of information on that too.

Postal delivery of food is declining and most folks resupply in the
trail towns and some of the hostels. You will find that if you want to
low carb hike, you will have to make up all of your own food as you
can't buy enough at the trail towns.

The whole trail is almost 2,200 miles long, and roughly 1000 people per
year hike it straight through, called thru-hiking. I got sick and had
to stop after just over 400 miles.

The hiking in Georgia and North Carolina and Tennessee is considered
brutal. Not that the mountains are sky high, but you are going up and
down and up and down and often the trails are steep and rough. The White
Mountains up north are also brutal, and the hike in Maine is considered
a challenge as well.

The food I bought and ate was high carb, and I needed the calories for
energy. Pop Tarts or Oatmeal and sometimes mashed potatoes for
breakfast. Snacks, sliced summer sausage or other preserved meat for
lunch along with snack food, and meat with something like a whole
package of Lipton's Side Dishes (seasoned rices or pastas) for dinner
with something sweet for dessert.

Pig out in towns. After a week or two, your hunger kicks in. Ben and
Jerries pint of ice cream for a town dessert.

For water, you will need to treat it for possible diseases. Sometimes,
the water source is just a trickle or something you wouldn't ordinarily
consider drinking from, except that the nearest stream or river could be
miles away.

You need to be able to fill your Camelback under primitive conditions,
not very many clean faucets. The pump water filter is one of the very
useful items, but they weigh about a pound. However, it is an easy way
to fill the Camelback after you have used the pump, or you can pump
directly into it.


You probably know of :

http://www.backpackinglight.com

http://www.practicalbackpacking.com

It is somewhat popular for people to make some of their own gear. I made
a "quilt" to substitue for a spring and fall sleeping bag and I made
some other things including a very lightweight poncho. Silnylon is a
"waterproof" fabric with is very lightweight at 1.3 oz per square yard
and it is used for tents, tarps, hammocks and raingear.

Prepare for RAIN.... unless it is a drought year, and then it will be
too easy to have to carry water to last you 20 or more miles.

I'm pretty quickly going to change my ISP. I could email you my phone
number if you could get an email to me , remove SPAM- , from my return
address above.

I bought a number of books but I have misplaced them, and when I find
them I can suggest certain things for you to look at.

Lightweight is my strongest suggestion. You would like to be less than
30 pounds on your back with all of your equipment and food and fuel for
a week and water for a day. So, if you can get pack and equipment down
to 10 to 20 pounds, that will help you a lot.

In a drought year, bears are hungry because food is scarce and they will
be more of a problem, and have been. Learn to properly hang your food so
it is bear proof.

You aren't going to die of snakebite. I saw a couple of rattlesnakes
and just missed seeing one five foot long "rattlesnack" as it was
written in the visitor book.

Don't even think of cotton socks. The most popular clothing tends to be
polyester whicking stuff. And some nice down vests or sweaters or good
synthetic.

Cell phones are nice especially to call a shuttle to pick you up, but
reception is quite spotty.




Bring your camera. Use lithium replacable batteries.

On Oct 17, 4:00 pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Hollywood wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Aaron Baugher wrote:

That's not the only way to get rid of excess energy. Mike Eades
recently blogged about a study of women that showed they gave off
*twice* as much heat when on a low-carb diet.

I wonder how that's measured. People can feel heat coming from
a person yet the radiating one won't have a higher body temperature.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/21/1/55#SEC1

Speaking of pre-concieved notions known to be false like high protein
being bad for kidneys, check out the last few paragraphs of that
write-up. It repeats the old assertion about kidneys then points out
that this study shows the old assertion is false. Then they go on to
blither about saturated fat!

Information cascades are hard to turn. It takes a shifting paradigm.
And
that's been known to throw many clutches out of order.

On Oct 17, 4:18 pm, "Pat" wrote:
9. Carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which leads to fat storage.
Fewer carbs = leaner us.

This is an oversimplification.

It's certainly a simplification, but I wouldn't call it an
oversimplification. Yes, there are people who have other health issues
like the cortisol stuff that's been discussed in this thread that keeps
simple carb reduction from taking off the weight. But for the general
population, "fewer carbs = leaner" is true. If all the soda and bread
and other high-carb foods disappeared from the grocery stores tomorrow,
forcing people to eat more meat and vegetables, all the evidence says
we'd be a leaner, healthier people within a few months.
--
Aaron --

In the populations around the world where meat is too expensive for many
people to eat, there is not a lot of overweight people. That's why I said it
was an oversimplification. Also, we need to get out of our cars. If I were
king of the US, I would immediately close all "drive through" and "drive up"
windows.

In Taubes review of this, the cultures that eat a lot of carbs,
percentage wise,
are the cultures where they eat a lot less, volume of calories wise.
The cites
of Japan in the 7 country study noted low fat consumption, high carb.
They
didn't note (in any report that came out of it) the low calorie
consumption of
those under study.

If my choices a
low carb, adequate protein, eat to satiation
or
low fat, low protein, subsistence rations
I think I know what the American in me is gonna choose. That I can be
as well
off, well, that's gravy to me. Pan gravy, thickened with heavy cream.

Hollywood wrote:
On Oct 17, 4:18 pm, "Pat" wrote:
9. Carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which leads to fat storage.
Fewer carbs = leaner us.

This is an oversimplification.

It's certainly a simplification, but I wouldn't call it an
oversimplification. Yes, there are people who have other health issues
like the cortisol stuff that's been discussed in this thread that keeps
simple carb reduction from taking off the weight. But for the general
population, "fewer carbs = leaner" is true. If all the soda and bread
and other high-carb foods disappeared from the grocery stores tomorrow,
forcing people to eat more meat and vegetables, all the evidence says
we'd be a leaner, healthier people within a few months.
--
Aaron --

In the populations around the world where meat is too expensive for many
people to eat, there is not a lot of overweight people. That's why I said it
was an oversimplification. Also, we need to get out of our cars. If I were
king of the US, I would immediately close all "drive through" and "drive up"
windows.

In Taubes review of this, the cultures that eat a lot of carbs,
percentage wise,
are the cultures where they eat a lot less, volume of calories wise.
The cites
of Japan in the 7 country study noted low fat consumption, high carb.
They
didn't note (in any report that came out of it) the low calorie
consumption of
those under study.

If my choices a
low carb, adequate protein, eat to satiation
or
low fat, low protein, subsistence rations
I think I know what the American in me is gonna choose. That I can be
as well
off, well, that's gravy to me. Pan gravy, thickened with heavy cream.

Well, I've traveled to SouthEast Asia for amost 30 years. Rural areas
as well as cities.
Most of the people in those areas are slender. Most of them eat white
rice as their main source of calories.
A couple points..
1. They tend to walk more.
2. They tend to NOT eat lots of other sugars and processed carbs or
sodas or desserts.

They don't eat what would be termed "subsistence" rations. They eat
until full but they don't pack it in.
I think my biggest problem with Taubes is that he makes carbs, just
like the ones eaten in Asia, as the culprit.
Had he just stuck with processed carbs, and sugars, I'd be a bit more
inclined to agree with him.
I might add that it is also true that the slender folks in Asia also
as a matter of habit eat far less fat than in the USA although they do
use oils.

I would say this. If......and its a big IF...... If you put 100
typical Americans on a typical diet from Indonesia or the Philipines,
they would on average, over a year or two, probably lose at least
50% of their "excess" body weight.
But one has to remember, that this is not the diet you typically see
in the average Asian restaurant you find either in America or in
Asia, and that is where most people get their ideas about Asian
eating.

I have to wonder if Gary Taubes has ever visited Asia and gone to the
markets and stores to see what people are really buying for their home
cooking.
Buy what they buy, and eat what they eat, and you'll find yourself
looking a lot more like they look after a few years.
But hey, as I always suggest, Go to Asia, and travel around for 2 or
3 months. See reality rather than reading it from some NY Times
reporter why may have never ventured into Asia.
I'd say $2000 spent traveling to Asia would be a better investment
than going to some expensive program at some health spa. Eye opening.

As that joke goes.......... Who ya gonna believe, ME or your own
eyes?
The "ME" being Gary Taubes

Dax

But we don't live in Asia, we live in societies where processed food is the
norm. No one is going to eat like people in other cultures. In this
situation carbs are bad.

wrote:
|
| Well, I've traveled to SouthEast Asia for amost 30 years. Rural areas
| as well as cities.
| Most of the people in those areas are slender. Most of them eat white
| rice as their main source of calories.
| A couple points..
| 1. They tend to walk more.
| 2. They tend to NOT eat lots of other sugars and processed carbs or
| sodas or desserts.
|
| They don't eat what would be termed "subsistence" rations. They eat
| until full but they don't pack it in.
| I think my biggest problem with Taubes is that he makes carbs, just
| like the ones eaten in Asia, as the culprit.
| Had he just stuck with processed carbs, and sugars, I'd be a bit more
| inclined to agree with him.
| I might add that it is also true that the slender folks in Asia also
| as a matter of habit eat far less fat than in the USA although they do
| use oils.
|
| I would say this. If......and its a big IF...... If you put 100
| typical Americans on a typical diet from Indonesia or the Philipines,
| they would on average, over a year or two, probably lose at least
| 50% of their "excess" body weight.
| But one has to remember, that this is not the diet you typically see
| in the average Asian restaurant you find either in America or in
| Asia, and that is where most people get their ideas about Asian
| eating.
|
| I have to wonder if Gary Taubes has ever visited Asia and gone to the
| markets and stores to see what people are really buying for their home
| cooking.
| Buy what they buy, and eat what they eat, and you'll find yourself
| looking a lot more like they look after a few years.
| But hey, as I always suggest, Go to Asia, and travel around for 2 or
| 3 months. See reality rather than reading it from some NY Times
| reporter why may have never ventured into Asia.
| I'd say $2000 spent traveling to Asia would be a better investment
| than going to some expensive program at some health spa. Eye opening.
|
| As that joke goes.......... Who ya gonna believe, ME or your own
| eyes?
| The "ME" being Gary Taubes
|
| Dax

wrote:
Hollywood wrote:

On Oct 17, 4:18 pm, "Pat" wrote:



Well, I've traveled to SouthEast Asia for amost 30 years. Rural areas
as well as cities.
Most of the people in those areas are slender. Most of them eat white
rice as their main source of calories.
A couple points..
1. They tend to walk more.
2. They tend to NOT eat lots of other sugars and processed carbs or
sodas or desserts.

They don't eat what would be termed "subsistence" rations. They eat
until full but they don't pack it in.
I think my biggest problem with Taubes is that he makes carbs, just
like the ones eaten in Asia, as the culprit.
Had he just stuck with processed carbs, and sugars, I'd be a bit more
inclined to agree with him.
I might add that it is also true that the slender folks in Asia also
as a matter of habit eat far less fat than in the USA although they do
use oils.

Taubes noted that one of the failures of Keys's diet studies was to
report on the consumption of sugar.

The "six nation study" featured Japan and it collected no data on
sugars. It actually collected no data itself, just drew on published
food data.

The "seven nation study" also featured Japan and when they collected the
data, the collected the low sugar consumption in Japan. Keys then just
ignored the sugar data as a potential explanation, as Keys already knew
the answer was FAT.

In life, there is no such thing as just varying fat (or one major
macronutrient). Whenever fat varies and calories remain the same, one or
more other food inputs change to compensate the difference.

As you so ably point out, when you do cross cultural studies, Japanese
ate less than other nations, they eat until full but don't pack it in.
They ate less calories, as well as less fat.

So you have clearly identified that the total calories ingested should
have been considered in the cross cultural studies as a variable for
diet - health studies.

More food in the diet vs less..... Less fat.... more of something else,
less sugar. Out of all of these things, can you be sure that FAT caused
all of the health effect?

Taubes is mainly describing the bad science of uncontrolled variables
and preconcieved notions of how the outcome would be.

Keys KNEW it was going to be fat, and that was all he considered.

On Oct 21, 1:54 pm, "FOB" wrote:
But we don't live in Asia, we live in societies where processed food is the
norm. No one is going to eat like people in other cultures. In this
situation carbs are bad.


Well, I eat mostly like they eat in Asia. Oh, not the exact same
dishes, but the general makeup of carbs, fat, protein is similar to
that eaten in Asia.

Its really not difficult, and it allows me to eat more than I could
consume eating in the traditional American style.
However I do use whole wheat pasta, and whole wheat couscous, but I
still eat white rice along with heaps of veggies and fairly small
portions of meats.
Its rather amazing, but after living in Asia for many months in
several different years, you just get the same "buzz" off of much
smaller portions of meat.

Eat like Asians and as I said, you'll soon be slender like Asians.
Perhaps not skinny, but fairly fit.

You know, something else I noticed. In American Chinese restaurants,
if you go to that place after lunch or before they open for dinner,
you can find the staff eating.
Mostly white rice with veggies, and only a very small amount of meat.
Look at their body style. Normally they are slender.

What can I say. I've traveled and observed. I believe my own eyes.
I believe what I see in the local Asian markets and food stores. Its
not magic. They are not hungry but remain slender. If I was
chronically obese, I'd consider going to Asia and spending 6 to 12
months to see what happens.
BTW, once you get to Asia (about $1,000 round trip) then you can live
in rural areas for less than $500 per month, meals included.
Try that at some "health spa" for dieters. You'll be talking more
like $500 for two days. Besides, Asia is more interesting and fun.

Oh well, most won't believe this. Instead they'll read books by the
Taubes of the world and buy into his "white rice" is fattening
theory. Billions of people on this planet show that to be false.

On Oct 21, 3:56 pm, wrote:
Hollywood wrote:

If my choices a
low carb, adequate protein, eat to satiation
or
low fat, low protein, subsistence rations
I think I know what the American in me is gonna choose. That I can be
as well
off, well, that's gravy to me. Pan gravy, thickened with heavy cream.

Well, I've traveled to SouthEast Asia for amost 30 years. Rural areas
as well as cities.
Most of the people in those areas are slender. Most of them eat white
rice as their main source of calories.
A couple points..
1. They tend to walk more.
2. They tend to NOT eat lots of other sugars and processed carbs or
sodas or desserts.

My travels in Asia (5 countries) find smaller portions. But what do I
know?

They don't eat what would be termed "subsistence" rations. They eat
until full but they don't pack it in.
I think my biggest problem with Taubes is that he makes carbs, just
like the ones eaten in Asia, as the culprit.
Had he just stuck with processed carbs, and sugars, I'd be a bit more
inclined to agree with him.
I might add that it is also true that the slender folks in Asia also
as a matter of habit eat far less fat than in the USA although they do
use oils.

I cannot cite how many times he points to "processed carbs and sugars"
in the book, but it's copious throughout. He focuses a lot of
attention on
sugar (and city asians seem to have a lot of sugar available and have
a
sweeter palate than even a sugar addicted westerner).

I would say this. If......and its a big IF...... If you put 100
typical Americans on a typical diet from Indonesia or the Philipines,
they would on average, over a year or two, probably lose at least
50% of their "excess" body weight.

Probably true. But your typical American isn't gonna do that. Even if
this is the United States of Arugula, your typical rural Indonesian
eats
stuff that a lot of Americans would turn nose at.

But one has to remember, that this is not the diet you typically see
in the average Asian restaurant you find either in America or in
Asia, and that is where most people get their ideas about Asian
eating.

Granted.

I have to wonder if Gary Taubes has ever visited Asia and gone to the
markets and stores to see what people are really buying for their home
cooking.
Buy what they buy, and eat what they eat, and you'll find yourself
looking a lot more like they look after a few years.

This assumes no damage from years of whatever. If you're already
diabetic, or 18 years on a 20 year journey there, I dunno that a lot
of
white rice is a good solution for you. The Asians you are talking
about
eat like they do for their lives, not for a couple years. From
childhood.
So I'm not entirely sure you're right.

But hey, as I always suggest, Go to Asia, and travel around for 2 or
3 months. See reality rather than reading it from some NY Times
reporter why may have never ventured into Asia.

He's a reporter from Science, not the NY Times (though he's probably
most famous for an article in Science).

I'd say $2000 spent traveling to Asia would be a better investment
than going to some expensive program at some health spa. Eye opening.

$2000 spent traveling is usually a better investment than an overpaid
spa, unless it's to Cleveland.

As that joke goes.......... Who ya gonna believe, ME or your own
eyes?
The "ME" being Gary Taubes

What if my eyes, in America and Europe, agree with Taubes? No
dissonance,
no problem.

Last thing: The calories matter. Just not as simple as calories in =
calories
out. It's a much more complicated accounting. It's like trying to use
a
single T-account to report to the shareholders of a Fortune 50
company. And
I think Taubes, in the text, leaves room for the calories to count.
And, lastly,
I think it's the calories in the Thai diet that keep Thai girls
pretty.