NYNY - Fred - Dec 10th

Oh, I forgot to congratulate you on the new low and loss. Great guns.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I can go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155 and 160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different than you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want to
lose
that weight for me..........

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2 years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after 5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
...
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155 and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want to
lose
that weight for me..........

Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Oh, boy, just running on................

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2 years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after 5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155 and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want to
lose
that weight for me..........

"Fred" wrote in message
...
Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

Hee hee. Not me honey, I am not wasting any points on Any of that.


I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

Yeah, WW offered me a thing to apply for a job. I declined. My leader
wants me to, but I am still thinking about sending the info to the WW
magazine. I may do it. Maybe. Next year.

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I would be SO rewarded then

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

Yes, I fit my favorite treats into the program. I have had some kind of
ice cream every night for the last year I bet. Just lately I changed from
having a whole cup of the light ice cream, to a small cone of the real
stuff. It is Better, the smaller, real stuff.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

I thought about this a lot when I first got to goal, because I was kind of
let down or something. Now that I am officially in the one fives at my
meeting I really feel done, and I feel kind of different about it.


Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Yes!. Already I am getting way less attention. Now if I was a meeting
leader I could bring in my old pictures of me at 365 and have constant
attention. Hmmm. Funny though, I think I stayed "sort of" heavy (the
between years) in the 200's because it made me feel invisible in a way.
Nobody wants to look at a heavy woman. Or not much anyway.

Oh, boy, just running on................

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance
people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or
whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2
years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after 5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I
can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of
this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155
and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort
of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for
food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The
reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars
or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different
than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want
to
lose
that weight for me..........

this all indicates that my musings about coping mechanisms is closer to the
truth than I would like to think, Lee
Fred wrote in message
...
Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Oh, boy, just running on................

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance
people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or
whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2
years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after 5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I
can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of
this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155
and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort
of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for
food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The
reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars
or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different
than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want
to
lose
that weight for me..........

Fred,

I thought the same thing you did, and figured she was talking about the WW
Smart Ones Pasta dishes. LOL See how much I pay attention?

Debbie

"Fred" wrote in message
...
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. (G)

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:22:16 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

WW also = Whole Wheat

"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
I've never seen WW pasta. At meetings or at a store? The rice
noodles - the 'clear' cellophane ones? I take those backpacking but
they can be hard to eat with just a spoon! (G) They are also almost
impossible to break or cut down to shorter lengths before cooking.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:29:11 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This is True about the WW pasta, but after a few dozen meals of the
stuff, I
found that I got "used" to it sort of, and now it is very good. This
might
not work for you, but I would suggest buying a pound and trying it,
long
on
the sauce, an extra minute or two on the cooking time, and see.
I like soba also. and rice noodle.

"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
I may try whole wheat pasta again but I never cared for it. There
is
something "wrong" with its mouth feel.

But a few weeks back we tried the Japanese buckwheat noodles. Fine
stuff. Soba, I think. I could not find pure buckwheat - most had
flour in them. I will hit the real Japanese market soon - I need
eel
with black beans (G) And Mackeral in teriaki sauce - both "fancy
sardines!"

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:51:43 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

Maybe my pasta trick might work for you. Or tricks. I love pasta
with
some
things, like the chicken randazzo.

I weigh out TWO dry ounces of whole wheat pasta.

I overcook it just a tad (it nearly tastes like pasta this way)

I add chopped zucchini or tatuma squash to my sauce for volume on
the
plate.

Those three things knock the heck out of a very very satisfying
very
large
serving of pasta, which still rings my bell on some occations.

And yes. I take home half, or share a serving with Ma. And cherry
tomatoes
and carrot sticks take up space on the plate so my chips servings
are
much
smaller and weighed. I love desserts too, but I go for a tiny
something
sweet at least once a day, as opposed to larger and less frequent.
I
don't
do well with delayed gratification

"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
I think that I'm developing my way of life. It probably may be
too
routine but it works. I have my meals down and while I do not
measure
everything (fish, shrimp, chicken), I do measure beef and cheese
(on
the rare blue cheese occasions) and lamb and nuts. Lunches are
also
standards at this point. When I do go out to eat, I have gotten
very
use to taking about half home (or on road trips, to the cooler).
I
don't seem to have the same driven cravenings for potato chips on
the
drives home from work and do not snack on cheese like I use to.

Desserts still have my name on them. Which explains the Costco
chocolate cake and now the fruit cake. But I am trying to limit
those
indulgences to once a week.

Snacking on a lot of dried fruits but trying to limit them but
sometimes that dried mango takes over.

PORTION control has definitely been a prime driver. I use to eat
a
ton, almost an entire package of 12 (dried) ozs of pasta as
dinner.
Now I really don't do that since potatoes have built-in portion
control. And I do kasha and make sure I come close to a one cup
serving. But it does not have the same calling pasta did. I
like
kasha a lot but it does not seem to demand to be overeaten. I
really
have to do bulghur again, too. I have some but like the kasha.

Breakfasts are also not measured very often. I should probably
get
a
handle on a cup of whatever again, just for control.

We just have to remember that we have a problem and unlike
alcohol
(I
never did much) or cigarettes (never), food cannot simply be
avoided.
So we need to keep HOPING and working on it. I do lose it like
Prairie with Miss Meringues but they are more kindly than losing
it
with real ice cream or cheese. And I do force a late night
pickle
down rather than more POINTS of any other kind.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:49:08 GMT, "Lesanne"

wrote:

Yesterday we went out to lunch, which we frequently do when
babysitting
DGD,
since then the cafeteria she loves has to clean up the mess. My
Ma
loves
fried anything. So do I, but you know how often I eat that sort
of
thing
(same as any of us). We bought the lunch special plate of
chicken
fried
chicken breast. There is not any skin, but there is a nice
crunchy
fried
whatever all over it. I also got a vegetable plate, which has 3
veggies.
I got mac and cheese (guess who loves that) canned corn (ditto)
and
green
beans. Then when we got to table, I cut the chicken into 3
pieces,
put
about 2 T of mac and cheese, 2 T of corn, all the green beans
and a
third
of
the chicken on my plate. I really figured I would be up a pound
this
morning, but still nice ole 157. I think this whole thing is
about
portion
control with the high calorie/fat/sugar items, and liberal
servings
of
0
point items for satiety and crunch (the chew factor) and this
becomes
not
so
hard. Are you also finding maintenance not as difficult as it
was
at
first?
I am! I hope that lasts!

"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
That is well put. I have been UP there now twice. So I know
what's
possible. But I also know I have a lot more tools as far as
food
consumption. Now, attitude, mood, spirit, whatever might have
more
power behind it then just the tools. So it will need constant
monitoring and vigilance.

I wish us all the best of luck and discipline.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:32:12 GMT, "Lesanne"

wrote:


Gotta tell you, I don't understand what your sister said.
Do
you
think
she
meant that when you get to 155, you will want to weigh
less
than
that?

Yes, that is what she meant. That each time I move the
line
down
for
"safety" I might want to move it down just a bit further so
that
I
draw a new safety line and don't approach the OLD one -
like
164,
oh,
well, 160, hmm, 158..... 155, 154?. So maybe shooting
for
155
should be just a rough idea and hovering now would be fine.
Up a
pound down a pound. I know the rules. I occasionally
break
the
rules
but not really as I quickly try reining it back in. Like
purchasing
a
Costco Fruitcake today (g) It is sliced and frozen save
the
one
piece
I have already eaten. And I probably "chawed" half a bag
of
gummy
bears last night and these are not tiny bags.


Just this part, clipped the rest. I can see myself not ever
being
"done"
just from the terror of going the other way. I am going to
set
my
"back
to
journalin" number at 160, and let it be. I too have not been
journaling
this past week and I am at a new low. I think this just
takes
daily
weigh
ins, and a willingness to go back on program when the one
sixes
show,
and
hanging around here to keep the focus. I really have a hard
time
believing
this. I was somewhere yesterday and someone I did not know
well
said
something that caused me to say something about being fat
They
looked
at
me and said, "YOU AREN'T FAT!" I had to laugh
I forgot. I'm not.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:38:44 -0800, Fred
wrote:

Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

Yes, stay thin and switch to booze. There's a support group for that
too. Or you could spend a month in Minnesota at one of our 10000
treatment centers to recover from all those rewards G

I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

One of topics that used to come rather frequently in OA was whether it
was possible to be addicted to the scale. (OA recommends monthly WIs
because of the tendency to weigh obsessively.) Some people were
uncomfortable with the notion of replacing one addiction for another.
Others decided that as long as the replacement wasn't as lethal as the
original, they were fine with it.

The idea of scale addiction might be stretching the definition of
addiction a bit far. But I've met lots of people who ended in OA after
getting sober in AA. They switched addictions. We all know people who
turned to food to curb their nicotine cravings when giving up the
smoking habit.

Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Oh, boy, just running on................

It's a good topic even if there isn't one definitive answer that
applies universally. But I think the reason any of us remains
overweight long after we acknowledge it as a problem is that there
were secondary, hidden needs for our obesity that won out over reason.
When those secondary gains are dealt with, they're no longer obstacles
to weight loss. Those secondary needs sometimes find expression in
another behavior, like exercise. Or newsgroup posting and reading. Or
knitting. Or drinking. Or spending. Or obsessing about maintaining.

Oh, was I running on...........? G

Good topic. Keep running on about it. You raise good points that many
of us need to think about if we're going to keep the weight off.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2 years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after 5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
. ..
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155 and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want to
lose
that weight for me..........





Prairie Roots
232/168/WW goal 145
joined WW Online 22-Feb-2003

yeah, obsessing about maintaining. Hoo boy. Ouch.
perhaps a grain of truth in there
Still. Like the exercise, maybe a not so bad addiction.

"Prairie Roots" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:38:44 -0800, Fred
wrote:

Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

Yes, stay thin and switch to booze. There's a support group for that
too. Or you could spend a month in Minnesota at one of our 10000
treatment centers to recover from all those rewards G

I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

One of topics that used to come rather frequently in OA was whether it
was possible to be addicted to the scale. (OA recommends monthly WIs
because of the tendency to weigh obsessively.) Some people were
uncomfortable with the notion of replacing one addiction for another.
Others decided that as long as the replacement wasn't as lethal as the
original, they were fine with it.

The idea of scale addiction might be stretching the definition of
addiction a bit far. But I've met lots of people who ended in OA after
getting sober in AA. They switched addictions. We all know people who
turned to food to curb their nicotine cravings when giving up the
smoking habit.

Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Oh, boy, just running on................

It's a good topic even if there isn't one definitive answer that
applies universally. But I think the reason any of us remains
overweight long after we acknowledge it as a problem is that there
were secondary, hidden needs for our obesity that won out over reason.
When those secondary gains are dealt with, they're no longer obstacles
to weight loss. Those secondary needs sometimes find expression in
another behavior, like exercise. Or newsgroup posting and reading. Or
knitting. Or drinking. Or spending. Or obsessing about maintaining.

Oh, was I running on...........? G

Good topic. Keep running on about it. You raise good points that many
of us need to think about if we're going to keep the weight off.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance
people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or
whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2
years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after
5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it
off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards
for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
. ..
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I
can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of
this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155
and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort
of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great,
gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for
food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The
reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars
or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about
how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different
than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still
want to
lose
that weight for me..........





Prairie Roots
232/168/WW goal 145
joined WW Online 22-Feb-2003

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:46:48 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

Like the exercise, maybe a not so bad addiction.

That was my point, actually, doing double-duty as a jab.

"Prairie Roots" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:38:44 -0800, Fred
wrote:

Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

Yes, stay thin and switch to booze. There's a support group for that
too. Or you could spend a month in Minnesota at one of our 10000
treatment centers to recover from all those rewards G

I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

One of topics that used to come rather frequently in OA was whether it
was possible to be addicted to the scale. (OA recommends monthly WIs
because of the tendency to weigh obsessively.) Some people were
uncomfortable with the notion of replacing one addiction for another.
Others decided that as long as the replacement wasn't as lethal as the
original, they were fine with it.

The idea of scale addiction might be stretching the definition of
addiction a bit far. But I've met lots of people who ended in OA after
getting sober in AA. They switched addictions. We all know people who
turned to food to curb their nicotine cravings when giving up the
smoking habit.

Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Oh, boy, just running on................

It's a good topic even if there isn't one definitive answer that
applies universally. But I think the reason any of us remains
overweight long after we acknowledge it as a problem is that there
were secondary, hidden needs for our obesity that won out over reason.
When those secondary gains are dealt with, they're no longer obstacles
to weight loss. Those secondary needs sometimes find expression in
another behavior, like exercise. Or newsgroup posting and reading. Or
knitting. Or drinking. Or spending. Or obsessing about maintaining.

Oh, was I running on...........? G

Good topic. Keep running on about it. You raise good points that many
of us need to think about if we're going to keep the weight off.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance
people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or
whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2
years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after
5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it
off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards
for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
. ..
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I
can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of
this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155
and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort
of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great,
gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for
food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The
reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars
or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about
how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different
than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still
want to
lose
that weight for me..........





Prairie Roots
232/168/WW goal 145
joined WW Online 22-Feb-2003


Prairie Roots
232/168/WW goal 145
joined WW Online 22-Feb-2003

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:02:44 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
Hey, they could give us booze for a reward (G)

Hee hee. Not me honey, I am not wasting any points on Any of that.

Oh, an occasional Port in a storm (which here would be the whole
weekend!!!)

I don't know if WW actually does anything for Maintainers over time.
I will have to ask my secretary. I don't know anything about other
"abstinance" programs and how they work. I would expect that WW might
have something but then again, I think people who reach goal either go
to work for them or possibly fade out of the public program. By the
way, has WW offered you a job?

Yeah, WW offered me a thing to apply for a job. I declined. My leader
wants me to, but I am still thinking about sending the info to the WW
magazine. I may do it. Maybe. Next year.

(sniff) - I was not offered a job. As my secretary noted, working
there, she HAS to Maintain. Enforced for job security.

I guess VIRTUE should be its own reward, huh? (G)

Well, I would be SO rewarded then

Ahhhhhhhhhhh

Well, I do have that chocolate cake and now fruit cake in the freezer
and I guess I probably did buy it so I could eat it but I'm not sure
it was planned as a reward (as you indicate food reward is not
necessarily a great idea) but more as I want those things on occasion
and should be able to fit them in to the program.

Yes, I fit my favorite treats into the program. I have had some kind of
ice cream every night for the last year I bet. Just lately I changed from
having a whole cup of the light ice cream, to a small cone of the real
stuff. It is Better, the smaller, real stuff.

Real stuff - no, nada, uh-uh. Not since Tucson when dad was dying.

This whole thing came to me when I could not hike because of the rain
and the friend I was with (we turned back at the trailhead before
leaving the car) also has a weight problem and so we discussed how it
is going for me and I just mentioned this reward issue. Wondered if
it was needed - was the scale my substitute and was that HEALTHY -
well, better than food but the crutch or need for reward as opposed to
it's the right thing.

I thought about this a lot when I first got to goal, because I was kind of
let down or something. Now that I am officially in the one fives at my
meeting I really feel done, and I feel kind of different about it.

That's good. You do sound more at ease with it.


Some other thoughts have also popped up. Like as we Maintain more,
less people will comment (congrats or inquiries) and so we get less
attention that way (altho, our image might get attention, I guess) and
while being heavy was not necessarily positive attention, it was still
attention????? And while I did not look as heavy as I was (given the
comments when I started losing) - my friends knew and they would
express concern about my health. We now lose that "reward" too???

Yes!. Already I am getting way less attention. Now if I was a meeting
leader I could bring in my old pictures of me at 365 and have constant
attention. Hmmm. Funny though, I think I stayed "sort of" heavy (the
between years) in the 200's because it made me feel invisible in a way.
Nobody wants to look at a heavy woman. Or not much anyway.

That would be attention getting. I guess, "mid-over weight" is less
attention getting than 375.

Oh, boy, just running on................

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:43:01 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

There should be some recognition of Time milestones for maintenance
people.
Like people who are abstaining from *substances* for instance, they get
little "stuff" for staying that way for some months, or years or
whatever.
I know I have read that if you maintain a weight loss for more than 2
years
your chances of continuing to keep it off are much improved. And after 5
years, like remission from cancer, you are almost assured to keep it off.
So the rewards should be for time. And I think also, that Food rewards
should be a thing of the past. I think food, (don't get me wrong, I am
talking Good food) should be for nutrition and fuel. Not for rewards for
anything, unless it is as a reward for Allowing our healthy bodies to
actually get physically hungry! I never used to get physically hungry,
always ate to keep from being that way. And boy is food bliss, when it
feeds actual hunger.
"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, it is sane but.. but.. .(sputtering...)

I need to accept no palpable reward, no visible reward. Just, as you
say, "feel great!" And just accept that as the reward but that is so
amorphous.

And then add to that that MAINTENANCE involves some small gains and
that is the antithesis of reward - downright scary even if I should
know it is normal.

I guess coming to grips with all of this Maintenance stuff is, well,
Maintenance (G)

Finding another reward - I really can't keep upgrading my computer and
I got new skis last week!!!!!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:19:46 GMT, "Lesanne"
wrote:

This looks very sane to me, this w.l. reward substitute for the food
reward.
I am 156 on my scale this morning and was frankly delighted because I
can
go
to the meeting this morning and get a nice low weight for the end of
this
year on my card. But my goal, my real goal, is to stay between 155
and
160
so I am there. I think I am going to need to set myself up some sort
of
positive reinforcement for staying Still. I sure do feel great, gotta
tell
ya.


"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
You're right, of course.

I've had additional thoughts on this, this afternoon while I was
walking the lake...

I think that _I_ and maybe some of the others have started to
substitute the REWARD of weightloss - seeing the scale drop, for
food,
itself. There is that positive glow when the scale shows a loss.
Now, there should be a time when that is not necessary and I should
not substitute the "weighloss reward" for the food reward. The
reward
should be holding steady and feeling good.

This is a new thought and (g) not definitely well-thought out just
yet. But it did get me wondering. After all, even at WW meetings,
Maintainers/Lifetimers no longer get recognition. No little stars
or
magnets or..... You just plug on along.

Just musing............

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:01:24 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

hey hey hey - down is down - and thus good.
and what other people think is never the issue - it's all about how
you
feel
about yourself........and no-one can tell you to feel different
than
you
do.
A million people can tell me I look good as I am - but I still want
to
lose
that weight for me..........