long-term induction or just 20 carbs

I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book says you
can and because you lose faster. In addition, I'm not having a real
hard time with the limited food choices. If I'm given too much to
choose from I tend to choose everything.

The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
also got to up the cals.

If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,
wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules, but wean yourself
(myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
reduce the calories? I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
for example.

I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. Thanks for
any help.

Lyne 185/158-160/130

Remove SPAMDEFENSE in address to reply.

You need to quit thinking of this as a race that you have to do really fast
and *win*. I am not sure what you mean with your weight statement in your
sig but if your highest was only 185, and unless you're only 4 feet tall, I
am assuming the 160-158 is a bouncing range, which is perfectly normal..
lots of people here would kill to be able to get down to even your
*highest*. If your problem is the calories and not really the carbs, then
continuing induction isn't going to help if you can't limit your caloric
intake as well in some way. Exercize will help immensely if you're not
already doing some. No amount or any type of dieting in the world will take
weight off if you don't burn the calories as well.

Teeb


"Lyne" wrote in message
...
I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book says you
can and because you lose faster. In addition, I'm not having a real
hard time with the limited food choices. If I'm given too much to
choose from I tend to choose everything.

The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
also got to up the cals.

If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,
wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules, but wean yourself
(myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
reduce the calories? I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
for example.

I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. Thanks for
any help.

Lyne 185/158-160/130

Remove SPAMDEFENSE in address to reply.

You just made the case for moving on to OWL. It doesn't slow down weight
loss to do so, the loss will slow down after you lose the initial water
weight regardless of what you do. More veggies is definitely a good thing.

In ,
Lyne stated
| I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book says you
| can and because you lose faster. In addition, I'm not having a real
| hard time with the limited food choices. If I'm given too much to
| choose from I tend to choose everything.
|
| The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
| worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
| they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
| a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
| week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
| also got to up the cals.
|
| If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,
| wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
| carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules, but wean yourself
| (myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
| reduce the calories? I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
| cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
| for example.
|
| I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
| elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. Thanks for
| any help.
|
| Lyne 185/158-160/130
|
| Remove SPAMDEFENSE in address to reply.

If you want to stay at 20g a day for longer than 2 weeks, then I would
switch to just counting carbs so that you have more food choices.
Atkins indicated it was ok for those who had a lot to lose to stay at
induction levels, so he clearly thought it would allow you to lose
weight faster. I know it works that way for me.

Lyne writes:
If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,

That, and teach you how to LC, and break your addictions. Induction
is not about losing weight! The severely obese (100+ lbs to lose) can
get away with long-term Induction because their hormones are
overwhelmed by their own fat cells, which changes the rules for them.

wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules,

If you follow the rules, you need to next find your CCLL. This means
*increasing* carbs until you drop out of ketosis and/or stop losing,
then decreasing them a little.

Two things you're missing:

1. You're supposed to "eat until no longer hungry". If you eat more
than that, you're not doing Atkins.

2. Recent evidence shows that you lose more in the long run at CCLL
than at Induction. Many who stay on Induction report stalls.
There's some evidence that your metabolism runs better with a
modest amount of carbs, so you want to "only barely" be in ketosis
to optimize it.

What is working for me is to keep under 20 carbs and count calories. I
drain all meats as much as possible, limit salad dressing to 1 tbsp. per
salad, limit cheese to 2 oz. a day, and in general use my calories as wisely
as possible. Calories still end up being about 50-60% fat, 30-40% protein
and 2-4% carbs. The use of http:\\www.fitday.com has been enormously helpful
in keeping track of everything.

Doing all this, along with a generous helping of exercise, I'm still losing
almost a pound a day after a month.

As always, YMMV.

--
Vic - (CGV) -Doing 1500 calories and under 20 carbs a day.
258/227/180
Since 3/24/04
"Lyne" wrote in message
...
I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book says you
can and because you lose faster. In addition, I'm not having a real
hard time with the limited food choices. If I'm given too much to
choose from I tend to choose everything.

The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
also got to up the cals.

If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,
wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules, but wean yourself
(myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
reduce the calories? I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
for example.

I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. Thanks for
any help.

Lyne 185/158-160/130

Remove SPAMDEFENSE in address to reply.

Staying on induction is okay for the severely obese(you're not
included). Atkins talks about people with 50 pounds to loose at the
high end on charts but doesn't talk about truly obese examples 100-150
lbs. Another omission. He doesn't really talk much at all about
staying on induction past two weeks. I'd say he sepends less than
three sentences on it in 500 pages. He leaves it to the person to
decide how overweight you need to be to stay on induction-a mistake
proven in the groups every week.

Staying on induction has no benefit beyond training yourself for LC.

Staying under your CCLL does. Starving your body of carbs--which are
vital to it--is not a good or healthy or helpful thing. Carbs don't
make you fat. You are only trying to control your cravings/insulin. I
felt much better once I went onto OWL.

My highest rate of loss occurred between 30-35 carbs so far. I will
never go back to under 20 unless I suffer from bad cravings.

In the first two weeks I did overeat and my calories averaged
2500-2600 a day, but they started to plummet after that as low as
1500's. Also, you mention fat on meat cuts--do you eat all that fat?
Beef especially can have piece of fat trimmings that are large and
stay in the plate. WHile calorie-couting typically includes them--you
don't eat them. Consequently my calorie/fat counts on beefy days is
always unrealistically high. I don't obsess about how many grams of
fat I scraped into the trash or how many ounces of grease were left in
the brolier, frypan, plate.

Also, you are getting to eat things you never had before. And if you
aren't a repetitive eater (constantly eat the same things all the
time) you will bore of the repetitiion and your desire for these fatty
things will slip to normal levels. I've had four bags of pork rinds in
my cabinet for 2 months now unopened. You should naturally shrink back
from overeating faty foods some--unless you *plan* to only eat them.

Lastly you have to ask yourself why are you eating? Were you thirsty
and ate instead? Were you really hungry? DId you just need to 'nosh
on a few nuts or a deviled egg and instead made a meal? Are you eating
past the point where you were satisfied and proceeding to overstuffed.
Are you eating becuase that's what you are supposed to do when sitting
in front of a tv movie? Boredom? depression? etc...


Lyne wrote:

I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book says you
can and because you lose faster. In addition, I'm not having a real
hard time with the limited food choices. If I'm given too much to
choose from I tend to choose everything.

The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
also got to up the cals.

If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,
wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules, but wean yourself
(myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
reduce the calories? I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
for example.

I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. Thanks for
any help.

Lyne 185/158-160/130

Remove SPAMDEFENSE in address to reply.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/300/Apr-299/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-60 carbs/day (CCLL=?)

Lyne wrote:

I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book
says you can

It says you can IF you have a lot to lose, aka 100+ pounds. You
do not even remotely qualify.

and because you lose faster.

It's a mistake that was added in the 2002 edition. Who knows why
Dr A put it there because he absolutely knew this to be untrue.
The original reason he designed the anti-obvious core process in
the first place is it dramatically out-performs staying at 20.

The less you have to lose, the higher the chance of stalling if
you stay at 20 because you stayed at 20. It's biochemistry.
Thyroid reduces output starting about week 3 if you don't have
enough excess fat to override that reduction. With 30 to lose
you are well into the littel-to-lose range where stalls because
of staying low are more likely that continued loss.

In addition, I'm not having a real
hard time with the limited food choices.

Short term view. Unfortunately folks have a higher dropout
rate. Head that off at the pass early.

If I'm given too much to
choose from I tend to choose everything.

Whew. Good thing you're on Atkins where that isn't a problem
if you follow the directions.

The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
also got to up the cals.

Drop the "and very fattening" line. Then work on brining your
portions down to reasonable size. After the initial carb cravings
of Induction are past, over eating is forbidden. But taper into
it. Slow but sure wins the race.

wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules

"Wouldn't it be better to ignore the directions and the 3 decades
of effort Dr A put into desinging them?" Uh. no it wouldn't be
better to do that. Step back and think about Dr A's 3 decades of
effort to design something that dramatically out-performs staying
at 20.

but wean yourself
(myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
reduce the calories?

No. Follow the directions. The directions tell you to eat
reasonable portions, low carb, medium protein and high fat.
Because doing that works better than anything you can dream up
on your own like combining low fat and low carb. I know it's
not obvious and I spent 4+ years studying the science before I
understood why it was true. But before I understood I stepped
out in faith, followed the actual directions in the actual book,
and it worked extremely well.

I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
for example.

Sounds like you just decided OWL. So why the resistance to
actually doing that?

I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask.

Extended Induction is discussed every day on ASDLC. Then again
there are around 200 threads every day too. It's like finding a
person in a crowd. Easy to do if you already know the person;
hard to do if you don't.

DJ Delorie wrote in message


2. Recent evidence shows that you lose more in the long run at CCLL
than at Induction. Many who stay on Induction report stalls.
There's some evidence that your metabolism runs better with a
modest amount of carbs, so you want to "only barely" be in ketosis
to optimize it.


Where is this evidence? Link please.

DigitalVinyl wrote in message . ..
Staying on induction is okay for the severely obese(you're not
included). Atkins talks about people with 50 pounds to loose at the
high end on charts but doesn't talk about truly obese examples 100-150
lbs. Another omission. He doesn't really talk much at all about
staying on induction past two weeks. I'd say he sepends less than
three sentences on it in 500 pages. He leaves it to the person to
decide how overweight you need to be to stay on induction-a mistake
proven in the groups every week.

Staying on induction has no benefit beyond training yourself for LC.



Strange then that Atkins indicate it was OK for people with a lot of
weight to lose to stay on induction for longer than two weeks, If it
was going to slow down weight loss, then what would be the point?


Staying under your CCLL does. Starving your body of carbs--which are
vital to it--is not a good or healthy or helpful thing. Carbs don't
make you fat. You are only trying to control your cravings/insulin. I
felt much better once I went onto OWL.

My highest rate of loss occurred between 30-35 carbs so far. I will
never go back to under 20 unless I suffer from bad cravings.

In the first two weeks I did overeat and my calories averaged
2500-2600 a day, but they started to plummet after that as low as
1500's. Also, you mention fat on meat cuts--do you eat all that fat?
Beef especially can have piece of fat trimmings that are large and
stay in the plate. WHile calorie-couting typically includes them--you
don't eat them. Consequently my calorie/fat counts on beefy days is
always unrealistically high. I don't obsess about how many grams of
fat I scraped into the trash or how many ounces of grease were left in
the brolier, frypan, plate.

Also, you are getting to eat things you never had before. And if you
aren't a repetitive eater (constantly eat the same things all the
time) you will bore of the repetitiion and your desire for these fatty
things will slip to normal levels. I've had four bags of pork rinds in
my cabinet for 2 months now unopened. You should naturally shrink back
from overeating faty foods some--unless you *plan* to only eat them.

Lastly you have to ask yourself why are you eating? Were you thirsty
and ate instead? Were you really hungry? DId you just need to 'nosh
on a few nuts or a deviled egg and instead made a meal? Are you eating
past the point where you were satisfied and proceeding to overstuffed.
Are you eating becuase that's what you are supposed to do when sitting
in front of a tv movie? Boredom? depression? etc...


Lyne wrote:

I had planned to stay on Induction long-term because the book says you
can and because you lose faster. In addition, I'm not having a real
hard time with the limited food choices. If I'm given too much to
choose from I tend to choose everything.

The problem is that I am managing to take in too many calories. The
worst thing I'm eating is the #!$% pork rinds because, even though
they are legal (being fat and "meat" and no carbs) they are basically
a snack food and very fattening. (I managed not to buy any this
week.) Cooking the meat without trimming away most of the fat has
also got to up the cals.

If the primary goal of Induction is to get you in to ketosis,
wouldn't it be better, once you are there, to continue to keep the
carbs at or under 20 and generally follow the rules, but wean yourself
(myself) from "I can have as much butter/oil/fat as I want" and try to
reduce the calories? I would like to have more veggies and less meat,
cheese, and eggs. I frequently want more salad than Induction allows,
for example.

I searched (in the Agent newsreader) and did not see this discussion
elsewhere, although I'm sure I'm not the first to ask. Thanks for
any help.

Lyne 185/158-160/130

Remove SPAMDEFENSE in address to reply.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/300/Apr-299/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-60 carbs/day (CCLL=?)