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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
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#122
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
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#123
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
Fat doesn't really fill you. What fills you during an Atkins diet is lack of
carbs. Lack of carb forces your body to use fat metabolism instead of regular carb metabolism (except for your brain which works poorly on fat metabolism - usually it has your lean mass, proteins, broken into carbs to fuel itself). Fat metabolism is dirtier than carb metabolism, and one of the toxins built from it are cetonic bodies. Cetonic bodies are what people with T1 diabete test in their urine, as they show that they have gone too far into hyperglycemia; when the blood sugar is too high (4g), carb metabolism cannot work anymore, and the body switches to fat metabolism. Anyway, fat metabolism is a long term starvation mode. That's the mode your body switches to after several days of fasting. As such, one of the property of cetonic corpses is that they cancel the hunger; after 3 days of fasting or so, your brain partly switches to fat metabolism and responds to cetonic corpses. The effects are loss of hunger (you're going on extended starvation, hunger is getting in the way of survival), exaltation (that's why fasting is used for religious purpose) and euphoria. That's why Atkins fails if you dare eat any sugar : it will disrupt the cetonic process, your brain will grab whatever carb it can and use it instead of fat (because your brain is much more efficient when it works on carbs). The intoxication level from cetonic corpses will lower and lift some of the "mystic" state it induced. Your brain will also induce that REAL food (carbs) is available and send a huge HUNGER signal. This doesn't mean Atkins is a really healthy diet. It relies on an abnormal metabolic state of your body, one that is sub-optimal for your brain, and that generates wastes. It also relies on intoxicating your brain, and brain intoxication diets are always very good for losing weight. For instance, amphetamines work even better than Atkins. Heroin does wonders as well. Both are very good weight loss methods. They're just not very healthy... |
#124
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
"Lictor" wrote in message ... snipped the rubbish LOL I would have said you had cut and snipped that from a PETA... oops I mean PCRM site but they spell KETONIC correctly |
#125
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
What does it have to do with PETA? It's an animal protection something,
right? Yes, I do love animals. Well cooked, with a tasty sauce or spices... Beef, sheep, rabbit, pig, duck (especially in confit)... I also eat animal and vegetal fats in moderate proportions. Vegetarians are usually sad people, like most people on restrictive diets (Atkins, Weight Watchers, low carbs, micro-****-diet...). But because I love to eat meat doesn't mean I should have a completely unbalanced diet and get rid of the other nutriments. Why do people think you should always be in an all-or-nothing mode? Though manicheism is a key component of magic thinking, and since most of the modern diets rely on magic thinking ("eat no carbs and you will lose weight, eat no fat! eat pineapple! eat bio unprocessed food only! And as long as you don't eat the Evil Food, you will lose weight whatever you do and feel no hunger and stuff your stomach to the brim, because it's only the Evil Food that make you fat") to sell, I shouldn't be that surprised... If you're body is working on Ketonic metabolism, which is an abnormal metabolism for a healthy human being with a healthy diet, then you are doing something wrong. If you need to intoxicate your brain to stop your cravings, then you are doing the same thing heroin addicts do to deal with life : using drugs to obliterate your feelings. You should rather seek proper psychological help to deal with that craving in the first place, and eat like a normal human being and accept the fact that your hunger is just the sign that your body knows what you need better than you do, not something you should struggle to ignore all the time... So far, each dietary revolution in the anglo-saxon world has only managed to increase the obesity level. Atkins like the rest of them. Countries went from low protein, to high protein, to low fat, to low carb, with exactly the same results : more and more obesity. If you look at 2,000 years of treatment for obesity, it looks like a silly joke. There has been several Atkins in history, and if it didn't work more than 2,000 years ago (Hippocrates already adviced sanguine obeses to eat very fat), I don't see why it should work now. So, now, you want to put children on yet another miracle diet, which will do the same as all the previous miracle diets : make them grow fatter and build more and more fat kids. The previous mistake was to switch young kids (2- years) to protein and low fat to keep them slim; this meant switching off mother milk earlier (50% calories from fat, 7% from proteins) to stuff them with proteins and meat. According to recent studies, this only accomplished two things : slowing down brain developpement (brain is built on fat and cholesterol) and preparing them for obesity (the more proteins, the more growth hormone, the more growth hormone, the more cells for storing fat). Now that we **** up kids during their first two years, I guess we will seek to **** them further by having them under Atkins during their second childhood. In the meantime, you still have a reasonnable part of the population who doesn't diet, eat of everything and maintain a pretty constant weight throughout their life. But of course, you cannot market such a diet, you can't sell special food for it or nutriment bars or anything, so it's unlikely to ever become the adviced one. PS: Ketonic is spelled with a C in my language. I didn't bother to check a dictionnary. Sorry for that. However, I would appreciate if you could refrain from correcting the spelling mistakes of someone who probably writes in your language a lot better than you would in his. "Dwayne" wrote in message ... "Lictor" wrote in message ... snipped the rubbish LOL I would have said you had cut and snipped that from a PETA... oops I mean PCRM site but they spell KETONIC correctly |
#126
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
"Lictor" wrote in message ... What does it have to do with PETA? It's an animal protection something, right? Yes and the PCRM which seems to be where you got your info from is related in many ways to peta so would you listen to a vegetarians views on a diet that promotes eating meat and is difficult (but not impossible) to follow as a vegetarian? http://www.ncahf.org/articles/o-r/pcrm.html If your info does not come directly from these please post the link I am sure it could be traced back because it sounds so much like the many press releases they churn out. Yes, I do love animals. Well cooked, with a tasty sauce or spices... Beef, sheep, rabbit, pig, duck (especially in confit)... I also eat animal and vegetal fats in moderate proportions. Vegetarians are usually sad people, like most people on restrictive diets (Atkins, Weight Watchers, low carbs, micro-****-diet...). But because I love to eat meat doesn't mean I should have a completely unbalanced diet and get rid of the other nutriments. Why do people think you should always be in an all-or-nothing mode? the low carb way of life only restricts heavily processed foods like sugar, white flour, white rice etc. Though manicheism is a key component of magic thinking, and since most of the modern diets rely on magic thinking ("eat no carbs ah well thats not Atkins or any of the LOW carb diets I have heard about. and you will lose weight, eat no fat! eat pineapple! eat bio unprocessed food only! And as long as you don't eat the Evil Food, you will lose weight whatever you do and feel no hunger and stuff your stomach to the brim, because it's only the Evil Food that make you fat") to sell, I shouldn't be that surprised... If you're body is working on Ketonic metabolism, which is an abnormal metabolism for a healthy human being with a healthy diet, Not true everyone becomes ketonic at some time during the day (most at night I am told) http://www.ketosis-ketoacidosis-difference.com/ then you are doing something wrong. If you need to intoxicate your brain to stop your cravings, then you are doing the same thing heroin addicts do to deal with life : using drugs to obliterate your feelings. sorry lost me here what are we supposed to be intoxicating our brains with? Ketones? You should rather seek proper psychological help to deal with that craving in the first place, and eat like a normal human being and accept the fact that your hunger is just the sign that your body knows what you need better than you do, not something you should struggle to ignore all the time... once again we are not dealing with *normal* human beings. So far, each dietary revolution in the anglo-saxon world has only managed to increase the obesity level. Atkins like the rest of them.Countries went from low protein, to high protein, to low fat, to low carb, with exactly the same results : more and more obesity. If you look at 2,000 years of treatment for obesity, it looks like a silly joke. There has been several Atkins in history, and if it didn't work more than 2,000 years ago (Hippocrates already adviced sanguine obeses to eat very fat), I don't see why it should work now. Can I suggest you lurk around some low carb forums and read just how its not working for yourself you cant argue with results I am afraid. So, now, you want to put children on yet another miracle diet, which will do the same as all the previous miracle diets : make them grow fatter and build more and more fat kids. The previous mistake was to switch young kids (2- years) to protein and low fat to keep them slim; this meant switching off mother milk earlier (50% calories from fat, 7% from proteins) to stuff them with proteins and meat. According to recent studies, this only accomplished two things : slowing down brain developpement (brain is built on fat and cholesterol) and preparing them for obesity (the more proteins, the more growth hormone, the more growth hormone, the more cells for storing fat). Now that we **** up kids during their first two years, I guess we will seek to **** them further by having them under Atkins during their second childhood. In the meantime, you still have a reasonnable part of the population who doesn't diet, eat of everything and maintain a pretty constant weight throughout their life. But of course, you cannot market such a diet, you can't sell special food for it or nutriment bars or anything, so it's unlikely to ever become the adviced one. I used to be one of those people I would eat a variety of foods and not put any weight on once I got past my 20's and slowed down a little the weight started to increase and most of us dont notice till its too late. PS: Ketonic is spelled with a C in my language. I didn't bother to check a dictionnary. Sorry for that. However, I would appreciate if you could refrain from correcting the spelling mistakes of someone who probably writes in your language a lot better than you would in his. yes you are correct and please accept my apologies. |
#127
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
"Ignoramus14239" wrote in message ... In article , Dwayne wrote: the low carb way of life only restricts heavily processed foods like sugar, white flour, white rice etc. If you look at a specific diet like Atkins diet, it restricts all carbs, for example the carbs in fruits. Also, potatoes are not by any stretch of imagination "highly processed", and yet they are restricted on low crb diets. i Yes my mistake replace restricts with excludes. |
#128
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
"Dwayne" wrote in message
... Yes and the PCRM which seems to be where you got your info from is related in many ways to peta so would you listen to a vegetarians views on a diet that promotes eating meat and is difficult (but not impossible) to follow as a vegetarian? I'm not a vegetarian myself, unless you consider that eating tofu once a week because I like the taste makes me one. Out of the last four meals this week, I have eaten beef three times, I think that pretty much disqualifies me as a vegetarian. I think going vegie is pure hubris. And I tend to think that any diet that diabolize one group of food is both unhealthy and somehow wrong. I dislike Atkis, low fat and vegetarian diets for about the same reasons. Though at least the vegetarian diet can claim to be a cultural diet (India)... Actually, I think any non cultural diet is a mistake. Most cultural diets which have been around for a long time tend to be healthy when you look at them closely, no matter what nutriment they get they main energy source from. I have the luck to live in a country where some diets rank right next to the Cretian diet as far as cardiovascular health is concerned, I don't see why I should switch to anything else... So, no, I didn't get any info from PCRM, I had never heard of it before you talked about it. I'm not American, and I tend not to seek food information in that country, because they tend to have a very manicheist view on food, with little room for middle ground. http://www.ncahf.org/articles/o-r/pcrm.html If your info does not come directly from these please post the link I am sure it could be traced back because it sounds so much like the many press releases they churn out. I tend to freak out at any scientific article that feels like it has to cite the Old Testament, or anything religious :-o I don't get all my information from the Internet This one was compounded from several French books, including an history of diets. Considering the book attacks vegetarians diets as badly as Atkins and low fat, I doubt it is partial. I mainly consider that artificial diets are bad, no matter how they're done. Actually, as far as fad diets are concerned, I actually admit that Atkins is not the worst. At least, it brought acceptance that fat are not Evil, and kind of offset the damages that the low fat fad diets had spread. The problem is that Atkins did that by diabolizing another food group. If you look throughout history and believe all the diets, you don't have any food group left to eat. Actually, you're not even allowed to drink water; in 1930, fat was caused by water, so you had to drink as little as possible to lose fat. The recommendation back then was to use no salt and to drink two glasses of water a day at most. The problem I have with Atkins is that it is a diet, and works like all of them. It removes you farther from eating like normal regulated human beings. People with a regulated weight do not eat low carb or low fat, they just regulate their caloric intake naturally. Any diet, of any kind, is just worsening the problem by removing you farther from the norm. Atkins mainly works by lessening your hunger and by restricting your food group (which tend to make people eat less, that why all diets with very little diversity work to a point). Instead of teaching you to handle your hunger, it worsens the problem by teaching you to ignore it completely. the low carb way of life only restricts heavily processed foods like sugar, white flour, white rice etc. That was an evolution from the original Atkins diet. Besides, low carb diet also controls the total intake of complex carbs (usually 30-100g). If you eat 300g of brown rice a day and some brown bread on top of that, you're not doing a low carb diet, you're doing a balanced diet. Not true everyone becomes ketonic at some time during the day (most at night I am told) http://www.ketosis-ketoacidosis-difference.com/ And night is fasting, so it's normal that some people might switch into fasting mode then. Though you're supposed to use your stored carbs during the night, and spend the beginning of it on the low glycemic carbs you ate at dinner. However, there is a difference between being in a metabolic state once in a while, and being on it permanently. Sleeping at night is normal, falling asleep throughout the day is a disease. Having blood sugar spikes from time to time (stress, infection) is normal, having spikes all the time is a disease. Just like having adrenaline rush from time to time is a sign of health, but having them all the time is a disease (stress). sorry lost me here what are we supposed to be intoxicating our brains with? Ketones? Yes. Your brain responds to them, so it's a kind of intoxication. Just like the people who are addicted on coffee or adrenaline rush. You should rather seek proper psychological help to deal with that craving in the first place, and eat like a normal human being and accept the fact that your hunger is just the sign that your body knows what you need better than you do, not something you should struggle to ignore all the time... once again we are not dealing with *normal* human beings. Why? Do you think some kind of disease fell on you the day you became fat? That's true for a minority, less than 10%. And even for these 10%, genetics and metabolic diseases are only a part of the whole problem. For the huge majority of us, the problem is a combination of behaviourism and psychology. Sure, you can probably manage neurosis with diets, just like you can manage it with medication, but I don't believe it's a good thing long term. The goal should always be to go back to normal, not to settle yourself in your troubles and hide them under magic thinking (miracle diet, gurus, pills...). The problem is that people with dietetary related neurosis often are heavily into magic thinking and identification with a guru, that's what make the fat industry so lucrative. Most obeses are rather normal human being, except for a heavy neurosis. Besides, obeses are only a subset of the customers on the diet market. More and more people with perfectly normal BMI ask for miracle diets, to lose these 5 pounds that would change their lives. Usually, you find them 5-10 years later on the same market, except they now are obeses. Can I suggest you lurk around some low carb forums and read just how its not working for yourself you cant argue with results I am afraid. I don't claim it's not working short term. Or even that it's not working long term for some people. Good for them. Just like low fat works for some people. Actually, this is one of the context that has shown one of the best success rate : people doing a diet themselves, without a doctor, but with a strong support group. The worst success rate is among people who do visit a doctor or a clinic; that should tell people something... I only claim that from a statistical point of view, it's not working. The USA has been on diets for half a century. They're the country with the largest diversity in diet food, low carb, low fat, high protein, you have it all. When visiting the USA, it has become close to impossible to buy normal regular food, with no stuff removed and none added. Cooking in NYC was a nightmare! The country has gone through three large "diet revolutions" already : high protein, low fat, low carb. But obesity as a whole is not decreasing thanks to all these diets, it's litterally exploding. And yet, the answer to that is more diets sooner. If a solution is having the exact opposite effect of what is intended, common sense would be that applying that solution again and again on a larger and larger scale is not the answer... The problem is even worse with kids. We have gone from an instinctive way of feeding kids (involving mother milk, you might think it would be the ideal food for babies), to more and more artificial food (mother milk can't be good! use powdered special baby milk instead! we got a cow industry to feed!), to balacing their diets to avoid *futur* obesity (introducing proteins earlier and earlier, which seems to be catastrophic and actually is preparing them for obesity) and to actually putting them on diet sooner and sooner. The end result : obesity is growing even faster among kids, and they are obese sooner and sooner. Yet, the general trend is that we should keep going along that way... Diets are a lie. Most claim you will be able to eat as much as you want, and that you will still lose weight. Being able to eat till you're full and yet gain no weight has a name : it's boulimia. Low fat promised that by offering to stuff yourself with delicious low calories fibers. Atkins promises that through ketosis and fat. And that's exactly how so many diets work. Like boulimics, you're able to maintain control for a while, by eating according to the plan or exercising like crazy (another tactic used by boulimics) or even, for some, using high fiber content as laxatives (again, courtesy of the boulimics). And then, hyper-control slips and you have a boulimia crisis (what is politely called bingeing for people on diets). For some, hyper-control is possible throughout the life, just like some boulimics (or anorexics) manage to maintain a stable weight. For others, this means a lifelong alternance between control and slipping (yoyo effect). I don't think building a neurosis in people on purpose is the healthy way of solving obesity... Of course, the fat business is so huge (think of all the money made in books, light food, fat free ****, special Atkins bars, clinics...) that it's doubtfull that many people are actually interrested in finding a solution, especially if the solution is inexpensive and doesn't require people to spend their life on it. I used to be one of those people I would eat a variety of foods and not put any weight on once I got past my 20's and slowed down a little the weight started to increase and most of us dont notice till its too late. Why? Did you catch a disease in your 20s? How is low carb the solution to this? How many diets have you done since your 20s? Usually, people actually pave their ways into obesity *thanks* to diets. Yet, they keep going back to diets. If you were able to regulate your food at 20, it usually means your genetic and metabolic background is good. Unless you had some major damage (brain tumor, thyroid failure...), you still have the same background. The food you ate was neither low carb, nor even healthy. To me, it just sounds like a diet is not treating the root of the problem, it's just a quick patch that can hide the problem for a while (or forever if you're lucky). The problem is still there... |
#129
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
"Lictor" wrote in message ... "Dwayne" wrote in message ... I'm not a vegetarian myself, I wasnt suggesting you are I was suggesting the opinion you wrote sounded like the stuff these people churn out. the low carb way of life only restricts heavily processed foods like sugar, white flour, white rice etc. That was an evolution from the original Atkins diet. Besides, low carb diet also controls the total intake of complex carbs (usually 30-100g). If you eat 300g of brown rice a day and some brown bread on top of that, you're not doing a low carb diet, you're doing a balanced diet. Sorry I dont think your right. This way of eating may be fine for some people and I know there are many who eat like this and stay thin and healthy but not everyone can. Not true everyone becomes ketonic at some time during the day (most at night I am told) http://www.ketosis-ketoacidosis-difference.com/ And night is fasting, so it's normal that some people might switch into fasting mode then. Though you're supposed to use your stored carbs during the night, and spend the beginning of it on the low glycemic carbs you ate at dinner. So if we are supposed to have carbs to fuel us throughout the day and night like you say then when is the stored fat going to get used? sorry lost me here what are we supposed to be intoxicating our brains with? Ketones? Yes. Your brain responds to them, so it's a kind of intoxication. Just like the people who are addicted on coffee or adrenaline rush. Sorry but there are some tests that say the brain (apart from a small part at the stem that needs carbs) runs about 25% better on ketones I would search out a link but you dont seem to be reading them. Why? Do you think some kind of disease fell on you the day you became fat? That's true for a minority, less than 10%. And even for these 10%, genetics and metabolic diseases are only a part of the whole problem. For the huge majority of us, the problem is a combination of behaviourism and psychology. Sure, you can probably manage neurosis with diets, just like you can manage it with medication, but I don't believe it's a good thing long term. The goal should always be to go back to normal, not to settle yourself in your troubles and hide them under magic thinking (miracle diet, gurus, pills...). The problem is that people with dietetary related neurosis often are heavily into magic thinking and identification with a guru, that's what make the fat industry so lucrative. Most obeses are rather normal human being, except for a heavy neurosis. Besides, obeses are only a subset of the customers on the diet market. More and more people with perfectly normal BMI ask for miracle diets, to lose these 5 pounds that would change their lives. Usually, you find them 5-10 years later on the same market, except they now are obeses. Can I ask if you are or have been overweight or some kind of nutritionist? Can I suggest you lurk around some low carb forums and read just how its not working for yourself you cant argue with results I am afraid. I don't claim it's not working short term. Or even that it's not working long term for some people. Good for them. Just like low fat works for some people. Actually, this is one of the context that has shown one of the best success rate : people doing a diet themselves, without a doctor, but with a strong support group. So now your saying it does work great then we have no discussion then. It does work and as long as you can stick to it then it will continue to work the big difference I think with Low carb ways of eating is that it is not so big a problem to stick to. Of course, the fat business is so huge (think of all the money made in books, light food, fat free ****, special Atkins bars, clinics...) that it's doubtfull that many people are actually interrested in finding a solution, especially if the solution is inexpensive and doesn't require people to spend their life on it. This I can agree with you on. So far I have spent about 8 pounds sterling on Atkins books I dont buy the bars or the supplements because I dont find them neccesary. I used to be one of those people I would eat a variety of foods and not put any weight on once I got past my 20's and slowed down a little the weight started to increase and most of us dont notice till its too late. Why? Did you catch a disease in your 20s? How is low carb the solution to this? How many diets have you done since your 20s? Usually, people actually pave their ways into obesity *thanks* to diets. Yet, they keep going back to diets. Only the disease of getting married and slowing my lifestyle down and the weight slowly increased but even when I decided many years later to correct this I started Thai boxing, jogging and went lowish fat supposedly healthy way of eating (I was eating way less calories than I do now) and even though I was losing I felt terrible the heartburn I had suffered with all my life got worse and I just didnt have any spare energy but I had trouble sleeping too. After the usual christmas excesses and quitting smoking I had risen to 210lb + and my feet where starting to feel the weight. Started Atkins at the end of Feb 04 and am now down to 195lbs and I feel bloody great loads of energy, sleeping much better no heartburn I havent had to use my asthma inhalers and my waist has shrunk by 2inches. I forsee no problems with following this way of eating for the rest of my life its easy. |
#130
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'Put fat children on Atkins diet'
So if we are supposed to have carbs to fuel us throughout the day and night
like you say then when is the stored fat going to get used? How about when we are working out or doing anything active??!! What has happened that no one gets any exercise anymore? Any type of diet that completely cuts an element out is wrong. I can understand if it is a moral decision, but to cut out anything entirely is too drastic. Moderation is key!! |
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