Is ketosis really the "backup" system?

Doug Freyburger wrote:

No it doesn't. My only guess is that you're thinking that
acetyl CoA is the same as ketones.

Acetyl CoA is produced from fatty acids or glucose. Acetyl CoA
is used in the Krebs cycle. In most drawings of the Krebs cycle
Acetyl CoA is fed into the top of the circle, likely because the
folks who figured out how the Krebs cycle worked decided it was
the primary fuel, it having come primarily from carbs. The
decision was a bit circular, but circular works fine when you're
drawing a cycle.

Just to try and make this clear. FFA is broken down to create
acetyl-CoA. Glucose is broken down to create acetyl-CoA. Ketones
are broken down to create acetyl-CoA. Its acetyl-CoA that inters
the cycle so it doesn't matter to the cycle whether acetyl-CoA
comes from.

Acetyl CoA is not the only product of fatty acid reduction. Also
produced is oxyactylketone (sp?).

Are you thinking of oxaloacetate?

This is the ketone that appears
in the blood of folks in ketosis, along with a few others.

The ketones that are produced FROM acetyl CoA a acetoacetate,
beta-hydroxybutyrate, and acetone. In ketosis oxaloacetate is
used in gluconeogenesis.

This
ketone is fed into the Krebs cycle from the right side on most
drawings of the cycle. Getting fed CoA (mostly from glucose but
also from fat) and oxyacetylketone both at the same time acts
rather like a supercharger burning more of both types of fuel.

Acetoacetate and b-hydroxybutyrate are used by muscle (including
heart), kidney & brain for energy if available, its acetone that
isn't used, but release.

Part of the metabolic edge of ketosis is those other ketones that
are formed rather than oxyactylketone. For example it's the
acetone that makes the smell. The portion of energy lost to
releasing these other ketones isn't enough to account for the
rapid post-water loss during ketosis, so the supercharger effect
seems to dominate.

What in the above did I get wrong? Is Acetyl CoA an acetate
rather than a ketone?

Acetyl-CoA is a building block for ketone production -- as well
as FFA to be stored.
Acetate from pyruvate (which comes from glucose) -- it can create
acetyl-CoA.

That would explain why acetates are
called the primary fuel, but the similarity between acetate
and ketone on the level got me.

Assuming that's my mistake, I'll try my original statement
over:

Acetate plus ketone is the only fuel anyways. There are
metabolic pathways from glucose to both acetate and ketones
during aerobic respiration. There are metabolic pathways
from fatty acid to both acetate and ketones during aerobic
respiration. Better? Still wrong? Thanks for the training.

You're missing a lot of details and skipping an complete system.

Lets go back to the issue that started this discussion. Cell
energy can come from FFA or glucose (because they end up creating
acetyl-CoA) without any need for ketones for energy. If there's
an abunance to acetyl-CoA (from FFA use) along with low levels of
insulin, that will then lead to ketone production. Ketones are
created and are recycled back into acetyl-CoA.

The body's fuel systems have multiple paths and recycle systems.
Ketone production and use is just one part, of one system.

I've gotten the impression that your point of view has clouded
your ability clearly take in these complex systems easily because
you want them to all go in a set direction. And that all the
reading and discussion in this area will only confuse things more
for you and delay your understanding. Put this all down and come
back to it when you're not looking for the answer you want to
find. All the information on this is on the web and you can get
back to it when your ready. Frankly I don't have the time to go
into this when I know there are there are better resources for
you to learn with when your viewpoint is clear.

In short, We could point to the forrest all day, but if you're
only looking for oak trees, you'll never see it.

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Hi Rudy (and Doug),
I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly Doug
doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things. That
aggravates me so I passed. In my meanderings I did find a site that
may help people get a handle on metabolic processes though, so here it
is:

http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/

Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't
hideously dumbed down.

Enjoy!

Take care,
Carmen

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:47:59 GMT, "Carmen"
wrote:

Hi Rudy (and Doug),
I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly Doug
doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things. That
aggravates me so I passed. In my meanderings I did find a site that
may help people get a handle on metabolic processes though, so here it
is:

http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/

Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't
hideously dumbed down.

Enjoy!

Take care,
Carmen
Hey that's a great page Carmen. Thanks for the heads up. I made
"Captain Carbon's Biochemistry Primer" #48 in the bright yellow
Health Info section on The Lowcarb Retreat. The Captain covers
protein and carbohydrate. I wonder if he has plans to add fat to his
page? The Captain makes it easier to understand than Goldberg. Yay
team! Can we make Captain Carbon required reading? You are such a
good sourcer. There should be some kind of medal for that. OK enough
gushing before I trigger a hyperglycemic episode.
Lee Rodgers
Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org
CHAT http://www.lowcarb.org/parachat.html
Low-Carb Connoisseur http://www.low-carb.com

Hi,
On 22-Aug-2004, (Lee Rodgers) wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:47:59 GMT, "Carmen"
wrote:

Hi Rudy (and Doug),
I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly
Doug
doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things. That
aggravates me so I passed. In my meanderings I did find a site that
may help people get a handle on metabolic processes though, so here
it is:

http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/

Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text
isn't hideously dumbed down.

Enjoy!

Take care,
Carmen
Hey that's a great page Carmen. Thanks for the heads up. I made
"Captain Carbon's Biochemistry Primer" #48 in the bright yellow
Health Info section on The Lowcarb Retreat. The Captain covers
protein and carbohydrate. I wonder if he has plans to add fat to
his page? The Captain makes it easier to understand than Goldberg.
Yay
team! Can we make Captain Carbon required reading? You are such a
good sourcer. There should be some kind of medal for that. OK
enough gushing before I trigger a hyperglycemic episode.

Thanks Lee. :-)
What did you think about the fate of poor Sam? G

Take care,
Carmen

Carmen wrote:

http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/

Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't
hideously dumbed down.


Thanks, that is a good site... mainly because it starts at the
very beginning and then progresses. Most of the other sites
assume you know what and where the compounds come from.

As I said before I'm self taught, never having taken a chemisty
couse, so its been by want and repetion that I've learn what I
have so far. So anytime you come across a good
biochemistry/physiology/metablolism sites let me know.

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:47:59 GMT, Carmen wrote:

I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly Doug
doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things.

Freyburger? No, not Doug Freyburger. Surely you jest.

That
aggravates me so I passed

I know the feeling. Except for the aggravation part. Got over that years
ago.

Hi,
On 23-Aug-2004, RRzVRR wrote:

Carmen wrote:

http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/

Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text
isn't hideously dumbed down.

Thanks, that is a good site... mainly because it starts at the
very beginning and then progresses. Most of the other sites
assume you know what and where the compounds come from.

That was the best thing about it. The author(s) are good teachers.
Not my forte, but I can recognize it in others.

As I said before I'm self taught, never having taken a chemisty
couse, so its been by want and repetion that I've learn what I
have so far. So anytime you come across a good
biochemistry/physiology/metablolism sites let me know.

Will do. :-)

Take care,
carmen