Help! 800cal/day = good diet or ED? "Eat less, do more" not working? VLCD trap?

"vlcd_hell" wrote in message
om
Help! 800cal/day = good diet or ED? "Eat less, do more" not working?
VLCD trap?
snip

Eat less exercise more doesn't mean starve yourself. VLCD should be
undertaken only under the close supervision of a doctor. VLCD is not just
eating less. It's a very delicate balance of essential nutrients and
vitamins.

Get yourself to a doctor who can help you before you end up ruining your
heart muscle which is not immune to deterioration due to starvation.

I agree with Chrys,

It's very possible that they are weight loss resistant. Dr. Phil's book 7
keys to weight loss covers this near the end of the book and makes
recommendations on what to have checked in blood tests, and mentions
minerals and supplements to take to help you depending on whether your a
apple or pear shape person.

It was a pretty lengthy note too...lol..I couldn't get myself to read it
all.

Paul

"Chrys" wrote in message
...
"vlcd_hell" wrote in message
om...
Help! 800cal/day = good diet or ED? "Eat less, do more" not working?
VLCD trap?

This is 28 pages long, you can't possibly expect anyone to be able to read
all that. I would think you likely have some major dysfunction in your
metabolism and I'd suggest you keep trying doctors until you find someone
who will listen to you. You mentioned having slightly low thyroid levels,
maybe you could find a doctor who will take that more seriously than the
one you've seen. Maybe check with any large university you can find in
your area, sometimes they might be more interested in helping and could be
more aware of research into problems like you describe.

Paul wrote:

I agree with Chrys,

It's very possible that they are weight loss resistant. Dr. Phil's book 7
keys to weight loss covers this near the end of the book and makes
recommendations on what to have checked in blood tests, and mentions
minerals and supplements to take to help you depending on whether your a
apple or pear shape person.

It was a pretty lengthy note too...lol..I couldn't get myself to read it
all.

Yes, because who better to look to for weight/fat loss advice/physiology
than a fat psychologist...

Lyle


Paul

"Chrys" wrote in message
...

"vlcd_hell" wrote in message
.com...

Help! 800cal/day = good diet or ED? "Eat less, do more" not working?
VLCD trap?

This is 28 pages long, you can't possibly expect anyone to be able to read
all that. I would think you likely have some major dysfunction in your
metabolism and I'd suggest you keep trying doctors until you find someone
who will listen to you. You mentioned having slightly low thyroid levels,
maybe you could find a doctor who will take that more seriously than the
one you've seen. Maybe check with any large university you can find in
your area, sometimes they might be more interested in helping and could be
more aware of research into problems like you describe.

vlcd_hell wrote:

So all this diatribe rant reduces itself to twenty questions :

1) Am I alone in this "breaks the calorie=calorie laws of physics"
VLCD behavior (remaining fat on 800cal/day)?
2) Can you eat less than everyone around you yet remain obese, over
two years?
3) Is the body really a straight-line linear mathematic model as
nutritionists portray?

Probably the important thing here is that any figures for how much you
should eat to gain/lose/maintain weight are for a theoretical Mr
Average, not everyone. They also make assumptions that may not always
apply. For instance if you had an exceptional efficient digestive system
then you may get a net calorie intake higher than Mr Average, despite
putting the same food in your mouth.

6) Does starvation mode exist despite what nutritionists say?

I didn't know the existence of a starvation mode was controversial.

9) Alcohol fuels your hunger like a roaring forest fire?

10) Is it true alcohol completely shuts down your body's ability to
use fats, storing them instead? IE, that glass of red wine with salmon
at splurge wknd dinner makes the salmon fats much worse than if you
abstained? Wine = good = false when trying to burn body fat?

Alcohol blocks carbohydrate/fat burning and promotes fat deposition, but
the effect of a glass of wine with a meal will be different to several
pints without a meal.

11) Can you save up WW "cal=cal" calories to spend like dollars later?
Starve all week then give yourself one wknd day of a normal
candlelight dinner out with god forbid even a glass of wine, without
getting obese? Or is this comparative-to-VLCD binging where the body
non-linearly stores every calorie during the normal meal. My data for
my body seems to say calories are not linear WW points or dollars.
12) Nutritionists and studies say it doesn't matter when you eat. IE,
even eating at night is OK ("cal=cal"). Yet other studies show 6x/day
eating better than one meal per day like nighttime dinner. That's how
I became fat. Yet bodybuilders say to eat protein after nighttime
workouts. Which?

The amount that ends up as fat will be greater in a binge than if the
same number of calories was consumed over several smaller meals.
Bodybuilders want to store the protein (as muscle) and eating later, as
your body is winding down and in more of a storage mode than a burning
mode will promote storage. If you're eating carbs or fat they will get
stored too.

13) Need to boost metabolism, so need to gain lean muscle mass, so
need to eat more protein calories, where more calories creates more
fat, round-robin "get nowhere" viscous circle? Lean mass gain
supplements needed?

It would be much harder to get fat from protein overeating than carb
overeating, because it's a more complex pathway and will only happen if
there isn't a requirement to make protein. If you're doing resistance
exercise there will be a requirement for protein for repair and
regrowth.

16) Where I gained fat on 800 cal/day, my true metabolism is ~400-600?
Some people just have slower metabolisms than others and should always
eat "less than normal" to not get fat? Is this flexible and trainable
or fixed and genetic?

I'd say you should as much as suits you and not worry about whether it
meets the value for Mr Average.

17) How do you go from 200 cal/day to 'normal' 1200 cal/day w/o
gaining fat?

With great difficulty, I'd have thought.

22) I'm obviously still eating too much & working out too little if so
much body fat remains, right? It's the no-lie final equation result &
indicator. Keep cutting food & upping exercise over time until results
finally show? To infinity?

Your own numbers should add up, but they won't necessarily matches
anyone else's.

25) Are you better off eating 200 calories of carb (putting you 200
cal deeper into the hole) beforehand to fuel a better anaerobic sprint
workout, hoping to make that 200 calories back in higher metabolism
later, or to skip the extra 200 calories outright and go out for a
doable 85% level effort on lower fat-burn energy instead? Low cal
hasn't worked - no fat loss.

I think it woul dbe very hard to lose weight by sprinting, whereas high
duration, low intensity exercise burns fat preferentially.

26) Are you better off eating 200 calories of protein (putting you 200
cal deeper into the hole) after a post-lifting workout, hoping to
build extra lean body mass to make that 200 calories back in higher
metabolism later, or to skip adding the extra 200 unneeded calories to
your day right before you go to bed? Low cal hasn't worked - no
muscle.

To turn your workout into lean muscles gains, you need protein. Lean
muscle gains as you know raise BMR.

27) Need calcium to burn fat? Need fat to burn fat?
28) Need potassium supplements? Multi-vitamin not enough? What else
should I take?
29) What am I missing by avoiding all grains? Empty calories since get
fiber from veggies, right? Same for bread, cereal, rice & pasta,
right?
30) One normal splurge social dinner per week acts like fat-store
binge re-feed for VLCD? Avoid at all costs?
31) VLCD perhaps worked when BMI 30, now need new approach?

32) What's the name of the "saltine creates pounds of fat" genetic
disease? Might learn something from this.
37) HOW can I gain 1lb/wk body fat on 800cal/day? Doesn't this mean I
am over-eating by 3500 calories/wk? Where is this fat coming from?

One scenario could be that your large gaps between meals mean a
sustained high cortisol level. Cortisol breaks down muscle to make
glucose, but in large amounts has the effect of making you fat bodied
and spindly limbed - the disease state is called Cushing's syndrome. In
effect fat and protein get redistributed to increase fat in the abdomen,
face and back. In addition there is significant water retention, which
can look like fat gain.

40) Midway through a really extra heavy lifting session, do you ever
get light-headed tingling sensations in your cheeks and face? Feels
like a diabetic lack of sugar sensation or is it a desirable fat
burning moment or is it something else? Only happens rarely maybe
twice per month lifting, never cycling or running, ruling out sugar
crash? Anyone else ever get this? Might be due to rapid and forced
inhale & exhale breathing during lifts?

Hyperventilation does cause dizziness, but blood pooling in the legs
does too, which will be increased in leg exercises.

41) To gain muscle you need to eat more calories and thus gain fat. To
lose the fat, you have to cut the calories and thus lose the muscle
you gained. What gets you to the point of mostly muscle and little
fat? Supplements?

Getting most of your calories from protein. You still only get fat if
you're overeating in energy terms. You need enough to fuel muscle
growth, so bodybuilders eat more than enough to make sure they aren't
compromising growth. They then diet down later to get rid of it.

42) Is it possible to lose body fat and build muscle at same time?

I'd say it was.

46) Does lack of protein really hinder post-lifting muscle growth?
It's THE only reason for my lack of lean mass gain? Really need 1g/lb
body weight to see any muscle growth to boost metabolism? Ignore
increase in body fat? Until what threshold? 10-15lb swings? 5% body
fat swings?

I'd say more protein might be an idea. Apart from allowing for muscle
growth it will help stave off cortisol-induced fat storage.

Is it my genetics that dictate my seeming 800 calorie/day metabolism
which my diet must follow to avoid weight gain, or is it my years of
increasing calorie restriction that has trained my body to simply run
on 800 calories/day where it gains fat on regimens consuming more than
that?

It could be your genes make you very adaptable to whatever you're
getting at the time and it's been a year on year progression.

MattLB

No, no offense taken at any advice offered. The last post was helpful.
Don't think Cushing's is a possibility based on the symptoms (eg, no
bruising), but interesting data. Perhaps I should have my cortisol
levels checked.

Yes, my post was long. Sorry. Assumed people with normal metabolisms
would skip it outright or skim at most. Hoped someone with a similar
experience would read it closer and offer feedback of "this item
sounded like me, that other one did not, here's how I go out of it."

No, no meds, wrote that in my post. Had to look up OCD - no don't
believe I suffer from that. Poor long-winded writing perhaps. Having
incredible patience to keep refining "Eat even less, exercise even
more" until I see results perhaps.

No, I really don't think there are psychological issues. I think
having a better/healthier/lower-calorie diet than anyone I know from
any social circle (with the exception of anorexics I've read on the
web) and working out longer than all but the most elite athletes yet
remaining with obese fat levels, would tend to make anyone get
extremely frustrated. So you tell yourself "give it a year," and still
nothing moves. Wouldn't that make you frustrated? Wouldn't that make
try to figure out what it is you are doing wrong? When you follow all
the most trumpeted "eat less, exercise more" and "a calorie is a
calorie" nutritional advice?

Well, this has not been much help so far for me, huh?

Not surprised. I HAVE found snippets of this question over the years
on the web. Doctors writing in about one of their patients, a runner
who runs massively and eats next to nothing yet has high fat levels
remaining, a cyclist whose obese sister eats next to nothing where
he'd perish if he ever had to survive on that little, etc. I could
post links if anyone is curious. Yet the pat standard response is
always "No way dude, I'd die eating that little, can't be possible"
where the person simply gets dismissed. Over and over.

So there are people out there in my boat. But they are always pushed
away.

So yet again there is no advice or real life experience to offer for
how to get out of the VLCD (very low calorie diet) hole?

"Eat more, exercise less" is truly a valid proven plan you would tell
people for losing body fat? Would YOU try it again if it made you gain
10-15 pounds in two weeks on each of your four attempts with it?

From my POV, no one in the country would be fat if they could eat a
whopping 3,000 calories per day, or even the 2,000 "minimum" for a
sedentary male. From "Good Morning, America" this morning a "TGI
Fridays" Atkins steak dinner with broccoli has 670 calories. From what
nutritionists say, a "good minimum diet" would be to eat THREE of
those enormous steak dinners every day of the year for 2100 cal/day
and never gain any body fat? Conflicts with the National Weight
Control Registry where the average cal/day is 1200.

That advice seems insane to me. Who would ever get fat if you really
are supposed to eat that much?

So perhaps it's fitting that some of you think someone eating less
than three steak dinners a day is insane. We all see the world through
our own filtered experience.

But no one else with any firsthand experience in this?

vlcd_hell wrote:

But no one else with any firsthand experience in this?

Yes, I've had experience with this. Yes, it gets laughed at. But I
have food diaries and exercise logs and nutritionist visits and a bunch
of bloodwork testing done and I honestly wasn't losing weight on what
ought to have been a calorie deficit.

That didn't mean it couldn't be done, it meant I had to look harder and
learn more than other people. But in the end I figured out how to do
it. I hesitate to claim this, but I started losing significant fat only
after I *increased* my food and *decreased* the time I spent in the gym.
Here's what I did:

I changed my diet over from a 75% carb (mostly whole grain, mostly
vegan) diet with 10-15% protein and 10-15% fat diet over to one that was
more equally balanced, Zone-ish, which turned out to be more actual FOOD
than before (but about the same calories). I also started eating four
or five times a day instead of two or three times a day and reduced
portion sizes accordingly.

I used to exercise 5 or 6 days a week of long-slow cardio at 65% heart
rate (i.e., barely getting warm and certainly not pouring sweat) for
about 45 minutes to an hour of cardio then do about 20 minutes of
Nautilus machines in a single set of twelve easy reps. For whatever
reason my body just considered endurance exercise a normal thing and
didn't seem to startle it into burning fat.

So I changed over to doing twenty minute high intensity interval
training three times a week and doing about 45 minutes of weightlifting
(after about a 10 minute warmup) three times a week where I was lifting
free weights and lifting heavy. I discovered that real women don't
glow, they friggin' sweat buckets.

I also started paying more attention to getting enough sleep. I was
always stressed and always sleep deprived and I think the cortisol
response was working against me.

The fourth element was I really, really started paying attention to
getting enough water. (Pause to down a glass as I type.) My policy now
is I drink a glass of water whenever I get up to go to the john and
bring back a full glass to my desk.)

In the past year and a half I've dropped about 60 pounds, gained muscle,
gained an active lifestyle, stopped being insulin resistant, stopped
having knee pain and don't struggle at all with making myself exercise
or eat clean, it's just my lifestyle now. You can track my progress and
see before and during pictures at www.bfltracker.com (look for Dally).
I've lost another 5 pounds or so since that last picture was taken
(finally the fat is coming off of my thighs.)

It's possible. It takes some tweaking. Your rage against the advice is
misplaced: the advice isn't wrong, your implementation of it is.

I sincerely hope this helps, because now I get to have a whole bunch of
people call me a FFID all over again.

Dally

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:29:52 -0500, Dally wrote:

vlcd_hell wrote:

But no one else with any firsthand experience in this?

Yes, I've had experience with this. Yes, it gets laughed at. But I
have food diaries and exercise logs and nutritionist visits and a bunch
of bloodwork testing done and I honestly wasn't losing weight on what
ought to have been a calorie deficit.

That didn't mean it couldn't be done, it meant I had to look harder and
learn more than other people. But in the end I figured out how to do
it. I hesitate to claim this, but I started losing significant fat only
after I *increased* my food and *decreased* the time I spent in the gym.
Here's what I did:

I changed my diet over from a 75% carb (mostly whole grain, mostly
vegan) diet with 10-15% protein and 10-15% fat diet over to one that was
more equally balanced, Zone-ish, which turned out to be more actual FOOD
than before (but about the same calories). I also started eating four
or five times a day instead of two or three times a day and reduced
portion sizes accordingly.

I used to exercise 5 or 6 days a week of long-slow cardio at 65% heart
rate (i.e., barely getting warm and certainly not pouring sweat) for
about 45 minutes to an hour of cardio then do about 20 minutes of
Nautilus machines in a single set of twelve easy reps. For whatever
reason my body just considered endurance exercise a normal thing and
didn't seem to startle it into burning fat.

So I changed over to doing twenty minute high intensity interval
training three times a week and doing about 45 minutes of weightlifting
(after about a 10 minute warmup) three times a week where I was lifting
free weights and lifting heavy. I discovered that real women don't
glow, they friggin' sweat buckets.

I also started paying more attention to getting enough sleep. I was
always stressed and always sleep deprived and I think the cortisol
response was working against me.

The fourth element was I really, really started paying attention to
getting enough water. (Pause to down a glass as I type.) My policy now
is I drink a glass of water whenever I get up to go to the john and
bring back a full glass to my desk.)

In the past year and a half I've dropped about 60 pounds, gained muscle,
gained an active lifestyle, stopped being insulin resistant, stopped
having knee pain and don't struggle at all with making myself exercise
or eat clean, it's just my lifestyle now. You can track my progress and
see before and during pictures at www.bfltracker.com (look for Dally).
I've lost another 5 pounds or so since that last picture was taken
(finally the fat is coming off of my thighs.)

It's possible. It takes some tweaking. Your rage against the advice is
misplaced: the advice isn't wrong, your implementation of it is.

I sincerely hope this helps, because now I get to have a whole bunch of
people call me a FFID all over again.

You have shown considerable honesty and courage posting this very
personal account, together with some perhaps not very flattering
photographs. The more recent photographs are really quite nice and a
considerable improvement on the originals.

You have done enormously well and have every reason to be pleased
with your progress. With that kind of determination there is no doubt
that you will achieve your target.

Well done! ;o)

On 1/21/2004 1:29 PM, Dally wrote:
vlcd_hell wrote:

But no one else with any firsthand experience in this?


Yes, I've had experience with this. Yes, it gets laughed at. But I
have food diaries and exercise logs and nutritionist visits and a bunch
of bloodwork testing done and I honestly wasn't losing weight on what
ought to have been a calorie deficit.

That didn't mean it couldn't be done, it meant I had to look harder and
learn more than other people. But in the end I figured out how to do
it. I hesitate to claim this, but I started losing significant fat only
after I *increased* my food and *decreased* the time I spent in the gym.
Here's what I did:

I changed my diet over from a 75% carb (mostly whole grain, mostly
vegan) diet with 10-15% protein and 10-15% fat diet over to one that was
more equally balanced, Zone-ish, which turned out to be more actual FOOD
than before (but about the same calories). I also started eating four
or five times a day instead of two or three times a day and reduced
portion sizes accordingly.

I'm not familiar with Zone -- what is the carbohydrate/protein/fat
breakdown? Just curious.

It's interesting to read about different experiences that people have
had. It sure points out that we are all unique individuals!

--
jmk in NC

"Dally" wrote in message
...
vlcd_hell wrote:

But no one else with any firsthand experience in this?

Yes, I've had experience with this. Yes, it gets laughed at. But I
have food diaries and exercise logs and nutritionist visits and a bunch
of bloodwork testing done and I honestly wasn't losing weight on what
ought to have been a calorie deficit.

That didn't mean it couldn't be done, it meant I had to look harder and
learn more than other people. But in the end I figured out how to do
it. I hesitate to claim this, but I started losing significant fat only
after I *increased* my food and *decreased* the time I spent in the gym.
Here's what I did:

I changed my diet over from a 75% carb (mostly whole grain, mostly
vegan) diet with 10-15% protein and 10-15% fat diet over to one that was
more equally balanced, Zone-ish, which turned out to be more actual FOOD
than before (but about the same calories). I also started eating four
or five times a day instead of two or three times a day and reduced
portion sizes accordingly.

I used to exercise 5 or 6 days a week of long-slow cardio at 65% heart
rate (i.e., barely getting warm and certainly not pouring sweat) for
about 45 minutes to an hour of cardio then do about 20 minutes of
Nautilus machines in a single set of twelve easy reps. For whatever
reason my body just considered endurance exercise a normal thing and
didn't seem to startle it into burning fat.

So I changed over to doing twenty minute high intensity interval
training three times a week and doing about 45 minutes of weightlifting
(after about a 10 minute warmup) three times a week where I was lifting
free weights and lifting heavy. I discovered that real women don't
glow, they friggin' sweat buckets.

I also started paying more attention to getting enough sleep. I was
always stressed and always sleep deprived and I think the cortisol
response was working against me.

The fourth element was I really, really started paying attention to
getting enough water. (Pause to down a glass as I type.) My policy now
is I drink a glass of water whenever I get up to go to the john and
bring back a full glass to my desk.)

In the past year and a half I've dropped about 60 pounds, gained muscle,
gained an active lifestyle, stopped being insulin resistant, stopped
having knee pain and don't struggle at all with making myself exercise
or eat clean, it's just my lifestyle now. You can track my progress and
see before and during pictures at www.bfltracker.com (look for Dally).
I've lost another 5 pounds or so since that last picture was taken
(finally the fat is coming off of my thighs.)

It's possible. It takes some tweaking. Your rage against the advice is
misplaced: the advice isn't wrong, your implementation of it is.

I sincerely hope this helps, because now I get to have a whole bunch of
people call me a FFID all over again.

Dally


FFID? I don't know that one but from the context it can't be good. I've
been trying to make my workouts more intense but shorter but all I do is
make myself sore. So today I'm having a recovery day because my arms and
legs honestly couldn't take it today. I'm still stuck at 197 but I see
changes in my body, muscles are starting to show on my arms and my DH says
that the saddlebags have decreased greatly. I don't think he's just saying
that for brownie points.

Tonia

John HUDSON wrote:

You have shown considerable honesty and courage posting this very
personal account, together with some perhaps not very flattering
photographs.

Butt-ugly, you mean? Yes, I was honest. I came from a lousy place,
nearly into a death spiral of too fat to do anything, and I'm getting
into a really healthy place now. I post it to show it can be done.

But I'm dropping MFW and SMN from all follow-ups. This belongs in
alt.support.diet and no place else, in my opinion.

Dally